Scenario Designers - Creating Units

[pmaidhof]

Deltapooh (and Charles, Curt, John, & Don),

When creating the units used in your scenarios, have you come to a concenus on determining RCP values.

I just "harvested" sample RCP's from "Closing the Gate" and wondered how you came to the final values. I am in no way finding fault. Do you use TJ's RCP Calculator, Allan Wortherspoon's "GDW Third World War" based RCP Calculator or have you devised something all together new.

What about you other scenario designers? Hopefully there is some type of standard.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I've talked directly to Jim about this and it's an interesting subject to say the least. Games like TOAW or Panzer Campaigns create units by building an actual TO&E out of individual weapons systems and soldiers. DA doesn't do that which is both good and bad. On the bad side it means that there is no common standard in this area. Scenario authors have to make educated guesses about what they feel is appropriate. On the good side, the system as it currently stands does afford the scenarios developer virtually unlimited latitude to designate the units as he sees fit.

What we may want to consider is taking that Excel spreadsheet to the next level. Once we do that, we can then generate a variety of common units from it and make a new OOB with them. The latest versions of DA have a lot more flexibility in this regard than the old ones, and a lot of things can be done here.

 

[pmaidhof]

What we may want to consider is taking that Excel spreadsheet to the next level. Once we do that, we can then generate a variety of common units from it and make a new OOB with them. The latest versions of DA have a lot more flexibility in this regard than the old ones, and a lot of things can be done here.

I think that it would be a useful tool to establish an agreed upon norm which would be available to all provided they wanted to use it.

For a start, a mid-80s and mid-90s US and USSR/FSU Corps, division, and Brigade OOB with RCP factors. With that as baseline; UK, German, Iraqi, "fill in the blank" OOB's could be generated.

It would definitely have to have the most prolific scenario designers on board, perhaps even a blessing from Jim L.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I think Jim would endorse this effort if the results are sound.

 

[pmaidhof]

I think Jim would endorse this effort if the results are sound.

Would you first compile the values from the factory-provided scenarios, then compare values from units provided in various user-developed scenarios, then aggregate them...hmm, so when do you start?

 

[Secret Agent]

Someone, somewhere, had an Excel sheet with RCPs for US and Soviet equipment.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I wouldn't use the units included on the default OOB as those are none too accurate. That being said, I'm not sure hyper-accuracy is required in this case. To be honest, I haven't looked at that RCP spreadsheet in a while and I would need to brush up on that before I could offer any substantial comments.

On a related note, Jim Lunsford said something to me that stuck in my mind. He said something to the effect that wargames are all about presenting the player with a series of challenging decisions and the player then has to live with the consequences of these decisions. It's not about modeling every spare bullet, soldier, or supplementary contour line. Rather at its base level, it's all about decision-making. This is a pretty good assessment in my opinion.

 

[pmaidhof]

On a related note, Jim Lunsford said something to me that stuck in my mind. He said something to the effect that wargames are all about presenting the player with a series of challenging decisions and the player then has to live with the consequences of these decisions. It's not about modeling every spare bullet, soldier, or supplementary contour line. Rather at its base level, it's all about decision-making. This is a pretty good assessment in my opinion.

True - the original intent of my question was simply how the scenario designers had come up with their RCP's. I then allowed it to morph into a quest to standardize RCP's, which while neat and tidy is in contrast to concept that Jim explained to you, and I agree with as well.

Someone, somewhere, had an Excel sheet with RCPs for US and Soviet equipment.

Yes, there are two that I am aware of. One more comprehensive that the other, but both somewhat limited.

For example, if I attempted to build a 1990's Cav Squadron, neither of the calculators provided for the inherent M106 mortars, or if building a Mech Bn, there was no provision for and APC with ATGM or ATGM+.

Both of which concerns can be glossed over provided that we subscribe to the notion that we should be more concerned with with the tactical situation presented and not modelling any specific weapon systems/characteristics. The sim should simply provide us with an opportunity to view the digital consequences of the tactical decisions we made.

 

[John Osborne]

Someone, somewhere, had an Excel sheet with RCPs for US and Soviet equipment.

I just posted the DA Force Ratio Calulator at the DA File Archives. This DA Force Ratio Calculator was put together by TJ, Jake Webber, Rich Link and myself for the use of calculating forces in DA scenarios. The RCPs values were taken directly from the Decisive Action Database. Hope this can help.

John Osborne
And no I'm not a doctor either just James.

 

[pmaidhof]

I just posted the DA Force Ratio Calulator at the DA File Archives.

Holding out on us, were you John...

 

[Dr Zaius]

Thanks John. Is this the same spreadsheet that has been around for a while, or is this a newer one that we probably haven't seen?

 

[John Osborne]

Holding out on us, were you John...

Just a little bit :laugh:

I've just finished putting a map together for a DA scenario base from the book, "The March Up, taking Baghdad with the 1st Marine Division". If you like, I can send the map to you. As soon as I get a chance, I will be working on the unit icons. Just been busy here at work with TacOps vignettes for the training :cheeky:

John

 

[John Osborne]

Thanks John. Is this the same spreadsheet that has been around for a while, or is this a newer one that we probably haven't seen?

Its the same one thats been around.

 

[pmaidhof]

I've just finished putting a map together for a DA scenario base from the book, "The March Up, taking Baghdad with the 1st Marine Division". If you like, I can send the map to you.

please send.

Is this the same spreadsheet that has been around for a while, or is this a newer one that we probably haven't seen?

It seems to have been enhanced from a very similiar looking one that I downloaded from the yahoo group site some time ago. This should work for my purposes - thanks to all how participated in the development of it.

 

[pmaidhof]

I've just finished putting a map together for a DA scenario base from the book, "The March Up, taking Baghdad with the 1st Marine Division".

I'd like to see your RCP values for the USMC units. Are you using shell RCT's with component inf bn, LAR, arty, etc?

I've been looking over the calculator that you just posted, trying to see where the Marine units, below the MEF=65, would fit in.

 

[cbelva]

In designing the units for my scenario I have found myself using a little of everything. I have used the stock units as is, I have used the RCP calculator and I have fudged (try educated guess) some of them when I did not think the scenario was playing out as I expected it to. It would be nice to have Col Lunsford or someone with more knowledge than myself explain some of the values given in the stock units. That could help future designers.

 

[John Osborne]

I'd like to see your RCP values for the USMC units. Are you using shell RCT's with component inf bn, LAR, arty, etc?

Well I haven't started yet on the RCP values for the USMC units. I have to teach today and have too put together unit information down to section level on RCT 2 for a scenario that I just got hit with today So I'm busy a lot.

I've been looking over the calculator that you just posted, trying to see where the Marine units, below the MEF=65, would fit in.

I will get with you this weekend.

John

 

[deagu]

Hello John,

i am working on a scenario about an USMC operation in the Strait of Hormuz (downscaled version of Desert Promise which i found at GlobalSecurity.org). So i am very interested in USMC unit RCP values.

Might it be possible to share the results of your studies with me ?

Thanks

Andre

 

[John Osborne]

Hello John,

i am working on a scenario about an USMC operation in the Strait of Hormuz (downscaled version of Desert Promise which i found at GlobalSecurity.org). So i am very interested in USMC unit RCP values.

Might it be possible to share the results of your studies with me ?

Thanks

Andre

Yes, I will most certainly share the information with you. Heck we can work together on it. I was, along time ago, thinking on doing a scenario base off of Desert Promise. But my job got me going the other direction.

John

 

[deagu]

Hi John

it would be great to work with you on it. I will contact you via e-mail.

Andre