Scenario Design books

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I bought the Pit book and found it very dissapointing if I'm honest (sorry Mark).
I wanted and expected a book which would detail national OOBs and give some significant insights into balancing and playtesting and the like and, from my recollection, the rather 'basic' style of the book fell short.
I'll take another look later today to see if I'm being fair or not.
Haven't purchased the Dorosh book...not easy to get hold of over here and probably wouldn't now as I've lost the desire to design one.
In actuality, I am led to understand the publisher that Mark and I both use utilizes a printing service in Spain for European orders and gets books to the U.K. relatively inexpensively and rather quickly (as opposed to shipping from North America).

I was actually encouraged yesterday to see that the publisher has a gigantic advertisement up in Ivor Wynne stadium, also. I suspect they are doing alright and that our books won't be "going out of print" anytime soon. :)
 

R Hooks

Smoke Break brb
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
762
Reaction score
209
Location
beaumont texas
Country
llUnited States
I've tried to order both of these books.. from "Books A Million n Barnes N Nobles" and they won't order them.. know they are for sale online.. but I don't use any credit cards, to make the order with. Whats chance MMP or another will sell them from a mail address?


__________________________
the check is in the mail.... sucker
 

Portal

The Eminem of ASL
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,348
Reaction score
56
Location
Calgary
Country
llCanada
IMHO, the Dorosh book is an excellent title for players because of its excellent visual inventory of all the maps and overlays with listings of the source ASL product for each one. I find this extremely useful when pulling a scenario card (especially the overlays inventory).
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I've tried to order both of these books.. from "Books A Million n Barnes N Nobles" and they won't order them.. know they are for sale online.. but I don't use any credit cards, to make the order with. Whats chance MMP or another will sell them from a mail address?


__________________________
the check is in the mail.... sucker
The publisher accepts Paypal as an option, and you can use Paypal without a credit card.
 

Doc Martin

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
443
Reaction score
51
Location
Tulsa, OK
Of course, Michelangelo was apprenticed to Ghirlandaio at the age of 13, and studied the doors of the Bapistry of Florence, or the Battistero di San Giovanni (done by Ghiberti) to learn perspective.


So while he didnt write a book about painting explictely, it would seem that he learned something during that time. I will grant that he had an amazing raw talent that someone without would be hard pressed to equal even with learning.

Which is why I will never equal Steve Swann or Pete Shelling, just to name two of the many.
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Which is why I will never equal Steve Swann or Pete Shelling, just to name two of the many.
I hope the argument is not being made that because one can't paint like Michelangelo, he should never learn the basics? Or that because one can never design a scenario like Steve Swann or Pete Shelling, he should never learn the basics of scenario design?

You can guarantee that a scenario designer will never be the "equal" of Steve Swann or Pete Shelling if they never even try.

When I was 13 and interested in diorama building, I read everything I could on the subject. Not because I thought I was going to be the next Shep Paine, but simply because it interested me. That included Shep Paine's books, but also articles by fellow "amateurs" in magazines like Fine Scale Modeller or Military Modelling. As it turned out, I did ok in contests, have a couple of ribbons and trophies somewhere in my knick-knacks. Also failed to place in far more than I got prizes in. The point of enjoying a creative hobby is not to fool yourself you're going to outdo the masters, but to pick up tips where you can. Mark's book, Steven's article, my book (and the references I cite in my footnotes), Pete's upcoming article, those are all places an interested hobbyist can turn to, not as a manual for how to become a master, but as an expression of general interest, and ultimately as a reference.

I never thought the ultimate goal of a creative hobby was to become a Michelango, Shep Paine or Pete Shelling, but simply to become as competent as one could, and have fun doing it. Others may be more motivated than that, but they also set themselves up for more disappointment if seeking world acclaim is the ultimate motive. Especially in this hobby. ;)
 

'Ol Fezziwig

Repressed Dissident
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
6,640
Reaction score
725
Location
hazy fold of reality
Country
llUnited States
Of course, Michelangelo was apprenticed to Ghirlandaio at the age of 13, and studied the doors of the Bapistry of Florence, or the Battistero di San Giovanni (done by Ghiberti) to learn perspective.


So while he didnt write a book about painting explictely, it would seem that he learned something during that time. I will grant that he had an amazing raw talent that someone without would be hard pressed to equal even with learning.

Which is why I will never equal Steve Swann or Pete Shelling, just to name two of the many.
The issue I have with buk lernin is that it tends to straitjacket; some apparently feel that the written word is gospel (especially their own). If you want to design, I think you should find your own path, like those greats that have preceded you. Their imagination, hard work and trial and error put them where they now stand, not some 'farcical literary ceremony'. Striking one's own path is superior than taking the path most often taken.

My $.02
 

Doc Martin

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Messages
443
Reaction score
51
Location
Tulsa, OK
The issue I have with buk lernin is that it tends to straitjacket; some apparently feel that the written word is gospel (especially their own). If you want to design, I think you should find your own path, like those greats that have preceded you. Their imagination, hard work and trial and error put them where they now stand, not some 'farcical literary ceremony'. Striking one's own path is superior than taking the path most often taken.

My $.02

I can go with that....

When I turn my disertation will you come to my defense for using passive voice?

:D
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
The issue I have with buk lernin is that it tends to straitjacket; some apparently feel that the written word is gospel (especially their own). If you want to design, I think you should find your own path, like those greats that have preceded you. Their imagination, hard work and trial and error put them where they now stand, not some 'farcical literary ceremony'. Striking one's own path is superior than taking the path most often taken.

My $.02
It's seems obvious you've never cracked the cover of either of the books being discussed in this thread; neither one of them is an explicit "how-to" of the type you describe. In fact, while I can't speak for Mark, his book - and mine - very much suggest exactly what you're talking about. So your comments seem extremely odd from that perspective. I think one needs to actually read the books before criticizing them for what they do, or cannot do. Nowhere has anyone suggested that there is a "recipe" for becoming a great artist. Was never anyone's intent. In fact, someone already stated that back in post #7:

I would suggest that it would be impossible to write a book on how to paint Picassos just as much as it is impossible to write a book on how to make "good scenarios" since everyone's definition will vary.
;)
 

quintanius

Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
193
Reaction score
7
Location
Anchorage
Somehow or another, SL and eventually ASL turned into something that people feel needs to be competitive. The historical events turned into a game where "playbalance" was more important than the historical event itself.

If that is the key to "good" scenario design, then there is no need to look further than the "Point Values" given in the book. Just like ALL popular minature games do, each side gets X amount of points, you buy your forces, throw in some neat weather, some cool overlays, and throw it on the table.

The miniature wargames in the past several decades have successfuly done just that. Players buy their forces, roll or place terrain as they feel like it, and have a list of special scenario rules ("SSR"'s if you will) to play with. Now you have a competitive game environment, which, given the point values, is about as close as you are going to get without giving each side the EXACT forces of the same nationality.

Now, some of us still prefer the "historical" scenarios. Playbalance takes a far backseat in this buss...

Since the early 1950's, there has been a small weekly, 40 page booklet format magazine called "Der Landser" in Germany. During that era, former Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe und Kriegsmarine Offiziere wrote down their experiences in ALL theatres of the war. Most are/were mid-level officers, that led their men through engagements they wanted to share.

The original readerbase were mostly X soldiers, but over the decades following these times, the reader base shifted to the pre-Bundeswehr Jugend - especially in the former East Germany. Conscription still being a fact in Germany and all that. Each and every male citizen in Germany (and many females) have served in the Army/Navy/Airforce: an entire nation of soldiers. (Reminds me of the Spartans, when they meet the force of Greeks from the Citystates...)

Anyway, although one must keep in mind that the stories are told with a little personal bias, they are very accurate in the historical context, and the commanders often had intimate knowledge of the units and enemy strengths in these small unit engagements.

There are by now over 2,600 volumes to draw from. First person perspectives from a wide range of services, arena's and conflicts, with plenty of historical data, units and events, from weather to commanders to lucky or unlucky results, and tactics and weapons, abilities, results and why they were or were not successful in an engagement. (I might also add that there is absolutely no mentioning of Jews, Racism, Nazi Propaganda, or any of the persona that where judged guilty in the Nuernmberg trials. It is purely - and often criticised for it - from a "Landsers" perspective. How the individual deal with the immediate situation: brief historical context to the larger picture is given in the foreword.)

But how can any wargame replicate the ability of a dozen men to hold back thousands of Russians for a whole week, and not loose a single man?

Impossible..yet time and time again, the Germans on the eastern front were outnumbered at 10-1 to 100-1 odds or more, and still either held the line or slowed the Russ enough until the attack collapsed. Or the german tank divisions of 4-6 tanks that held back hundreds of russian tanks.

I dont believe that there ever is or ever will be such a thing as "balance" in a war. Both sides might be in the illusion that they have the upper hand, and only then commit their forces, but how can one judge things like that? (Look at that French tank in Stonne 1940 that took 144 hits and destroyed over a dozen german tanks...)

But play-balance and all that is completely un-historical, in my opinion. Let the player re-play history, and see if he can/could do better, given the same forces and situation and assets. Thats why I play ASL.

If I want a fair and well balanced game then I play miniture battles.


Thomas


http://landser.de/cgi-bin/index

PS: What I'd like to see eventually would be a smaller than squad based game, where each counter is a single man, at about 1/8 the scale (5 yard hexes). That be finda fun.
 

Morbii

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
4,320
Reaction score
392
Location
Gilroy, CA
Country
llUnited States
Somehow or another, SL and eventually ASL turned into something that people feel needs to be competitive. The historical events turned into a game where "playbalance" was more important than the historical event itself.
It IS a game, so that's naturally what it was from the beginning. Of course playbalance is important as we're playing a game. I dare say the forces in any given scenario have never matched the actual forces on the actual battlefield, but they've been close enough approximations. Additionally, the "playing area" has never matched, except it's been close in some HASL.

If that is the key to "good" scenario design, then there is no need to look further than the "Point Values" given in the book. Just like ALL popular minature games do, each side gets X amount of points, you buy your forces, throw in some neat weather, some cool overlays, and throw it on the table.
Only partially true. The terrain involved adds a LOT.

I dont believe that there ever is or ever will be such a thing as "balance" in a war. Both sides might be in the illusion that they have the upper hand, and only then commit their forces, but how can one judge things like that? (Look at that French tank in Stonne 1940 that took 144 hits and destroyed over a dozen german tanks...)

But play-balance and all that is completely un-historical, in my opinion. Let the player re-play history, and see if he can/could do better, given the same forces and situation and assets. Thats why I play ASL.
Of course not. But, in ASL, balance might mean several different things. The construction of the VC helps with that. It may be that the VC might not appear like a victory, but in light of the historical situation, it actually is.

If you spent a bunch of time playing scenarios that were based 100% on historical accuracy with no balancing provisions in mind or playtesting whatsoever, you'll probably have a pretty boring time. The real exact situation probably doesn't go along with playing the game quite that well and isn't necessarily going to have even a similar effect (some of which I think you probably illustrated just on your own).
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Somehow or another, SL and eventually ASL turned into something that people feel needs to be competitive. The historical events turned into a game where "playbalance" was more important than the historical event itself.
First of all - GREAT post. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

If that is the key to "good" scenario design, then there is no need to look further than the "Point Values" given in the [rule]book. Just like ALL popular minature games do, each side gets X amount of points, you buy your forces, throw in some neat weather, some cool overlays, and throw it on the table.
That's a big if. I'm not sure anyone was suggesting that was the key, though a lot of people do seem to emphasize balance. I think tournament players are heavily represented on this board - not suggesting that is a bad thing, either, given the highly social component of the game. It's a board game after all, and face-to-face play is one of the appeals that is supposed to keep people from fleeing to the computer or other hobbies. But it's also possible to run tournaments with unbalanced scenarios too - they certainly did so in the Combat Mission world - you just weight all the results, use NABLA scoring, etc.


The miniature wargames in the past several decades have successfuly done just that. Players buy their forces, roll or place terrain as they feel like it, and have a list of special scenario rules ("SSR"'s if you will) to play with. Now you have a competitive game environment, which, given the point values, is about as close as you are going to get without giving each side the EXACT forces of the same nationality.

Now, some of us still prefer the "historical" scenarios. Playbalance takes a far backseat in this buss...

Since the early 1950's, there has been a small weekly, 40 page booklet format magazine called "Der Landser" in Germany. During that era, former Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe und Kriegsmarine Offiziere wrote down their experiences in ALL theatres of the war. Most are/were mid-level officers, that led their men through engagements they wanted to share.

The original readerbase were mostly X soldiers, but over the decades following these times, the reader base shifted to the pre-Bundeswehr Jugend - especially in the former East Germany. Conscription still being a fact in Germany and all that. Each and every male citizen in Germany (and many females) have served in the Army/Navy/Airforce: an entire nation of soldiers. (Reminds me of the Spartans, when they meet the force of Greeks from the Citystates...)

Anyway, although one must keep in mind that the stories are told with a little personal bias, they are very accurate in the historical context, and the commanders often had intimate knowledge of the units and enemy strengths in these small unit engagements.

There are by now over 2,600 volumes to draw from. First person perspectives from a wide range of services, arena's and conflicts, with plenty of historical data, units and events, from weather to commanders to lucky or unlucky results, and tactics and weapons, abilities, results and why they were or were not successful in an engagement. (I might also add that there is absolutely no mentioning of Jews, Racism, Nazi Propaganda, or any of the persona that where judged guilty in the Nuernmberg trials. It is purely - and often criticised for it - from a "Landsers" perspective. How the individual deal with the immediate situation: brief historical context to the larger picture is given in the foreword.)

But how can any wargame replicate the ability of a dozen men to hold back thousands of Russians for a whole week, and not loose a single man?

Impossible..yet time and time again, the Germans on the eastern front were outnumbered at 10-1 to 100-1 odds or more, and still either held the line or slowed the Russ enough until the attack collapsed. Or the german tank divisions of 4-6 tanks that held back hundreds of russian tanks.

I dont believe that there ever is or ever will be such a thing as "balance" in a war. Both sides might be in the illusion that they have the upper hand, and only then commit their forces, but how can one judge things like that? (Look at that French tank in Stonne 1940 that took 144 hits and destroyed over a dozen german tanks...)

But play-balance and all that is completely un-historical, in my opinion. Let the player re-play history, and see if he can/could do better, given the same forces and situation and assets. Thats why I play ASL.

If I want a fair and well balanced game then I play miniture battles.


Thomas


http://landser.de/cgi-bin/index

My barber used to have copies of Landser kicking around - this was only two years ago; he probably still does, I have since changed barbers in favour of female barbers (for a couple dollars more, they throw in a shampoo, make better conversation, and you have a young good looking girl run her fingers through your hair instead of a crusty old German asking you the same old questions each time you go in.) It looked like an interesting enough magazine, but I didn't see that much in the way of detailed maps, orders of battle, and of course nothing from the Russian side that would assist in coming up with historical research for company-sized scenarios. It was like a Wehrmacht gossip column, but I admit I only breezed through a couple of issues. They were buried deep under more recent magazines.

PS: What I'd like to see eventually would be a smaller than squad based game, where each counter is a single man, at about 1/8 the scale (5 yard hexes). That be finda fun.
Try Sniper!, Patrol!, 2nd Edition Sniper!, Close Assault, Firepower, PBI, Move Out, or for less serious fare any of the Ambush! series, as well as Soldiers, Iron Cross, H-Hour, Trenchfoot, Combat, or for a unique twist, the card-driven Up Front, all of which are man-to-man games.
 

quintanius

Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
193
Reaction score
7
Location
Anchorage
I think the Landers are most certainly not scholarly works of any sort, more like novels of events as the author remembered or wishes it to be remembered. There have been groups that critizised the Landers for romanticising combat and such - pro-military etc. But overall, they are a heck of a lot better than holywood dramatizations and pulp fiction stuff. At least one gets something as close as a view of events, characters, and situations that modern writers and novelists lack: actual combat duty, and much of it in horrific circumstances. But they do help a reader at least understand a little of the mindset, the tactics, and how the small unit leader reacted in situations that we never could immagine otherwise.

What I do not like about 90% of the scenarios, is the weather. Its always Mild with no Breeze. I cannot immagine a day in Germany without any sort of breeze, or a day where it is not either raining cats and dogs, or hot as heck, or just rainy drizzle and cold, especially since there are so many rivers and streams that make the whole of europe is very moist.

I played teh Ambush series: I had every module, and played the heck out of it. I particularly loved the randomness about it. Alas, it is lost to the various moves and such. ASL could use a bit of that: random events. Thats another reason I particularly like campaign games over scenarios. I do so dislike the games where I completely and utterly destroy each and every squad and vehicle of the enemy on the board, with 2 turns to go, and loose the scenario because some HIP half squad has a LOS at a feature and thus wins the game. Yea...that makes sense. We capture the town, no French survivors, but hey, those few Frenchmen in the orchard, eating apples cause us to loose the game. Absurd. But there it is.

Another scenario I rember playing - forget the name, was where the Germans had an AT gun, and the US player had to destroy it. Well, the 1st shot in the scenario was a 12. Then I tried to repair it. Rolled a 6. Game over in the 1st turn...there ought to be SSR in those small games that override those fate rules. If the intent of the combat was for the US player to capture and destroy the gun, then there should have been a provision that said, that If the gun breaks, it is still a goal for the US player to destroy it. How do they know its not working? And no matter what, their mission and order is to destroy the gun...that sort of thing.

I really do like the rules for Battlefield Integrity. They are not used enough, and something similar ought to be a means of gauging when an enemy has lost the will to fight and retreats, instead of the last squad suicidal sort of charge, or halftracks driving all over the fields and valleys, looking to stop route paths, and not kowing for certain what is over the hill beyond. Sacrificial cannot fodder and using the rules and the players free will to do with what they want with their forces most certainly spoils more scenarios than necessary.

But I certainly appreciate each and every scenario there is out there. The research involved and most particularly the passion and the work (and the often very good background information) make many of them very appealing, and even ones that look suspect at first glance can be very fun engagements. There used to be a time where 1/2 board and 4-5 turn scenarios were all I played. Fun games. Just sometimes weired things happen that ruin them.

I also am a proponent for random turns...

Mini-campaigns is also something that the ASL community is lacking. Simple 3-5 game day battles with simplified Re-Phase rules, but a bit of the flavor of continuation, of advancement and a thought to the next scenario could bring the fun of campaign games to players who do not have months or years to play a full CG, or even one of the smaller sub CG's, since most of those still require a ton of special rules and such.

I wonder whatever happend to the Leader Progression rules from the old SL days, where an Infantry Leader or an Armor Leader could be played by the player and advance through feats of valor and such...that was kind of fun.

Speaking of leaders, until the modifier is used, or applies, most if not all leaders ought to be a generic counter until revealed, or, the first time they are used, their moral and leadership modifier could be rolled for.

We recently played "The Great War" series by the folks who make the "Europa" style games. The leaders in this game had 3 numbers. One rolled a dice to see what particular modifier this leader had during this particular battle. Some were 0/0/+1...others 0/+1/+1...and folks like good old Foch was a -1/0/+1. That made each combat where they were used a bit unpredictable...especially in a dr driven game and odds combat table system. But there are already enough modifiers in ASL..but still, neat idea.

Thomas
 
Top