Saving Private Ryan pack from Wild Bill

[Ray Woloszyn]

I am disapointed there is no "Steamboat Wille" counter for the radar station scenario. I guess I am not going to buy this pack now.

 

[dreenstra]

Normally I like to stay positive.. and believe if you don't have anything good to say then don't say it.

However those products don't exactly look like the highest of quality.. but wouldn't slam anyone for making the buck if people want to throw their money away overpaying just to be completionists. It is like the remarks said.. the buyers that create a market for those products are as much to blame.. and I'd say ARE the blame not the provider of the product. If people didn't buy it... then perhaps there might be a bit incentive to provide more quality, rather than quantity.

That only works if you assume the "provider" is honestly trying to produce quality product. Given this person's lack of history with the game and his scurrilous selling tactics, I think it's safe to assume he's done some research on what game line will produce the quickest cash from rabid fans and is trying to take advantage of the market. If he was honest about it, his marketing would include the phrase, "This Is A T**d With ASL Printed On It" and see how many people would buy it. I might be able to respect his efforts and blame the bidders if he still drew three figure bids.

Dave

 

[micky]

That only works if you assume the "provider" is honestly trying to produce quality product. Given this person's lack of history with the game and his scurrilous selling tactics, I think it's safe to assume he's done some research on what game line will produce the quickest cash from rabid fans and is trying to take advantage of the market. If he was honest about it, his marketing would include the phrase, "This Is A T**d With ASL Printed On It" and see how many people would buy it. I might be able to respect his efforts and blame the bidders if he still drew three figure bids.

Dave

ahhh... Dave I am a newbie around these parts which is why I tried to keep a moderate tone to my post. I really don't know the history of the guy who makes these 'products' past what was mentioned in the DM reviews. I didn't read of anything wrong or unscrupulous other than feeding the monster of overpriced ASL items on the auction market. If the seller was purposefully driving up ebay prices with ghost bids .. yeah.. that would be a problem. If that was the case though those items would have.. or should have been removed from ebay if it could have been proven. From what I read (though of course I may not know the whole story) they make inferior quality products, which is no crime, and people buy into it and whose fault is that. Buying.. without checking what you are buying.

I mean.. WHO buys these products. I'm a newbie back into ASL and active on ebay.. yet I knew from the start to give those products a WIDE berth and not even touch them. If anyone is getting gouging... perhaps it is not players.. real players.. but those are collectors and not players.. and those who see ASL and buy to try resell to real players at super inflated prices. Ask whether any of us should have any sympathy for those who get stuck with paying 3 figures for a 15 dollar product and find they can't resell it at a profit... or a fraction of the cost haha. If I'm wrong and real players got stuck paying that kind of money for something like that then I apologize. I would think that most real players are market savy and know the good ..from the dogs.

 

[Markdv5208]

Gee, I wish Pitman would stop sitting on the fence and tell us what he really thinks of WBW's stuff.
I hope he's not having to spend his own money to acquire these products he's got pics of. Mind you i can't see himgetting review copies.

Pitman is entitled to his opinion.....but from what I've seen, how can he be wrong? The maps--good ideas--but the execution OUCH OUCH OUCH

The counters--again good ideas, but what are these guys smoking but not inhaling?

And the general themes. Wow, I like them....but way too many little errors, not to mention big errors, that all total up to saying AVOID ME AT ALL COSTS!


Just my humble opinion mind you....


Mark DV
Ada, MI

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

you guys might not believe this but the ASL world does not rotate around GS, there are thousands of ASL'ers out there, we are just a very small portion of the hobby that hangs out here like internet rats that we are.

So give those guys that buy this guys crap a break, its their money ya know.


Scott

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I would think that most real players are market savvy and know the good ..from the dogs.

there are thousands of ASL'ers out there...its their money ya know.

I would agree with both points; that's the long and short of it. Don't discount the fact that collectors make up part of the community and just want to "own stuff" to have it. Counters, overlays and mapboards that look good stand on their own regardless of the quality/playtest level of the rules/scenarios.

 

[Vinnie]

My genuine concern was the Pitman was shelling out real money to keep his reviews up to date even though he knows the quality of the product. That really would be going above and beyond what is needed.

I feel that Desperation Morale gives a good resource to the hobby and although you have to filter all reviews through your knowledge of the reviewer it adds much much more than it takes away.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

My genuine concern was the Pitman was shelling out real money to keep his reviews up to date even though he knows the quality of the product. That really would be going above and beyond what is needed.

You were scared he wouldn't have enough money left for his wardrobe, his hair products or his girlfriend?

Seriously, if you're a collector, doesn't that mean you dedicate yourself to collecting it all?

I feel that Desperation Morale gives a good resource to the hobby and although you have to filter all reviews through your knowledge of the reviewer it adds much much more than it takes away.

No argument. Don't you think this status is known to vendors, though? I am sure by now he gets complimentary copies. I bet he would get even more complimentary copies if his reviews were more even-handed - I don't mean "biased" - just less personal in nature. Then he could spend more money on hair gel or whatever it is you think he needs his personal funds for.

 

[micky]

My genuine concern was the Pitman was shelling out real money to keep his reviews up to date even though he knows the quality of the product. That really would be going above and beyond what is needed.

I feel that Desperation Morale gives a good resource to the hobby and although you have to filter all reviews through your knowledge of the reviewer it adds much much more than it takes away.

for the viewpoint of one who is oblivious and ignorant to the personalities involved... I take it like I do album reviews... I could care less if the reviewer likes an album (or product). What a reader wants is information ... what does it sound like (what is included..quality of map and counters etc). From there a reader decides if that is a product from them. For that his site has been invaluable to me, as I navigate a maze of TPP that I have no experience with. Having heard of .. none of them before I got back into the game this last Decemeber.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

for the viewpoint of one who is oblivious and ignorant to the personalities involved... I take it like I do album reviews... I could care less if the reviewer likes an album (or product). What a reader wants is information ... what does it sound like (what is included..quality of map and counters etc). From there a reader decides if that is a product from them. For that his site has been invaluable to me, as I navigate a maze of TPP that I have no experience with. Having heard of .. none of them before I got back into the game this last Decemeber.

Great points. I really like BGG's photo submission standards for that reason - i.e. no glare, must be focused, etc. I did try and submit Wild Bill's Vietnam ASL products to the database there, but they wanted a ream of corroborating "evidence" that the game actually existed. The BGG staff used some circular logic and made it seem like too much work. I may take another stab at it using Mark's site as the evidence that the stuff really exists as an actual product - that would be irony - but I guess the question is how badly I really want to legitimize it. A better question would be why Wild Bill hasn't taken that obvious step himself, I mean, if he's really serious about selling these things honestly instead of, as Dave mentions, just separating people from their money sneakily.

The upside to doing that, of course, would be that there are people who use BGG as a reference that may not know of DM and would find it informative.

 

[ASL Maineiac]

Seriously, if you're a collector, doesn't that mean you dedicate yourself to collecting it all?

Just because I collect comic books doesn't mean I'm going to buy the homemade comic book some dude down the street drew with pencil and colored crayons.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Just because I collect comic books doesn't mean I'm going to buy the homemade comic book some dude down the street drew with pencil and colored crayons.

What if some other collectors started paying top dollar for them?

I'm being serious. I'm with you, by the way, but the art scene is littered with people who feel differently. Our national gallery paid 1.6 million dollars for a canvas with three vertical stripes painted on it. I still don't get it.

 

[micky]

Great points. I really like BGG's photo submission standards for that reason - i.e. no glare, must be focused, etc. I did try and submit Wild Bill's Vietnam ASL products to the database there, but they wanted a ream of corroborating "evidence" that the game actually existed. The BGG staff used some circular logic and made it seem like too much work. I may take another stab at it using Mark's site as the evidence that the stuff really exists as an actual product - that would be irony - but I guess the question is how badly I really want to legitimize it. A better question would be why Wild Bill hasn't taken that obvious step himself, I mean, if he's really serious about selling these things honestly instead of, as Dave mentions, just separating people from their money sneakily.

The upside to doing that, of course, would be that there are people who use BGG as a reference that may not know of DM and would find it informative.

good point.
on my 3rd cup of coffee and caffined up for a philosophical mental masturbation so bear with me.

first off.. I tend to be moderate in my tones. I don't know who of these cast of characters are members here and I am one of those 'stay positive' people who'd rather say good things and leave the bad things unsaid (or to others which is far more entertaining to read rather than be involved with haha)

To be honest I just have a real problem with seeing this 'Wild Bill' as some kind of ASL 'bad guy' though. I don't own any of his products, and unless he improves the quality and does so in a subject that interests me, I never will. So I'll base my opinions on the general impressions of his products. How is he apparently different from aspects of our larger society where the uninformed and ignorant are preyed upon to pry them from their money. With more more harmful effects than paying a couple hundred bucks for a 'shitty' ASL product. If they can afford to spend that kind of money for something like that... losing it should be no problem. Not even going into just 'who' is buying these products that doesn't even check on on what they are buying before they buy it. This isn't a house payment or an 'investment'. It should be free money given over to a hobby. If one can't bear the results of a bad expendature.. one shouldn't have spent it in the first place. So I guess in all honesty I have like zero sympathy for anyone who buys it and find maps of 4th grade art student quality, or scenarios that are 'unplayable' Wild Bill supplies a demand (leaving quality aside.. not everything can.. or is of quality) for those that want to take ASL and go to Vietnam, or to Hollywood with Private Ryan. Sure.. I'd love for him to quit released this stuff and offer something that I might be interested in. There is plenty of room for quality products for us to spend money on. However if he chooses to release subpar products and put them up on ebay.. more power to him. It is the market and those that feed the market that are the problem.

Just last night I was on ebay and found my way to an ebay dealer of ASL. Nice guy... he started off by having unused collections sold to him. Seems he had enough of them sold to him (probably at deals like the 'dream' deals that some of you seemed to have got in that 'best purchase' thread haha).. yet in a perfect world.. he would provide those OOP items to real players or returning players at decent prices. Does he.. nope.. if you want a copy of CoB from him.. you'll pay $300. Do I begrudge him and others of his ilk.. nope.. the price reflects what others are willing to pay for it so why not make a profit. That is the same with the Wild Bill... he puts out sub-standard quality material.. and the market sets the price. Can't fault him anymore than 'legitimate' dealers for making the buck if it is there and there are people willling to pay outrageous prices. I still can't get over the fact that people were paying over $200 for copies of DB when it was being re-released by MMP the next week. If others want to throw money away let them.. it's their money. Can't fault the seller if people are willing to throw money away. It's their right to throw it away.. just as it is the seller to be there to pick it up.

If people stopped buying his products.. then he would be forced to do something different like... hah....a quality product.

might be way off base and don't think badly of me if I am... just the way I see things. I don't care for his products.. quality, subject, or his way of selling them. But that is a long way from me painting him out as some boil on the ass of ASL. He is just a symptom of a larger ill in society and the ASL world as I see it.

cheers Michael!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Can't fault the seller if people are willing to throw money away. It's their right to throw it away.. just as it is the seller to be there to pick it up.

I agree 100%. There are simply far too many tools out there for prospective buyers to inform themselves with. A simple google search on any of the WBW products will land them either on this forum, or on a review of the product. And the "ask the seller a question" button works well also.

 

[micky]

I agree 100%. There are simply far too many tools out there for prospective buyers to inform themselves with. A simple google search on any of the WBW products will land them either on this forum, or on a review of the product. And the "ask the seller a question" button works well also.

exactly! If one doesn't use the resources available.. then who do they have to blame. If I understand correctly it isn't even like Wild Bill is 'charging' big money for these products (with the expectation that price= quality). To me that would be a 'foul' and verge on misrepresentation. They are sold at auction, with decent 'start' prices with the last few I've seen.. that puts the 'fault' squarely on the buyer not the seller. If someone wants to pay me a hundred bucks for one of my stick person drawing.. yeah I'll take it. Of course I'd never put my amateur artwork on ebay.. but that is just me hahah.

oh well.. done with ASL philosophizing. It does sound like there might be a personal component to it as well which I'll stay out of.. and ignorant of.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

micky, I agree with you but with one caveat. As long as potential buyers are aware that the quality is not what would be expected for an ASL type product, it's their money. It is, I believe, a duty of those who have seen such produce, to warn potential buyers of quality issues and also why they think that, IE rules, balance, physical quality, etc.

Whether I think his stuff is a "labour of love" or "a tur..errr.. potato with ASL stamped on it" is neither here nor there.

 

[micky]

micky, I agree with you but with one caveat. As long as potential buyers are aware that the quality is not what would be expected for an ASL type product, it's their money. It is, I believe, a duty of those who have seen such produce, to warn potential buyers of quality issues and also why they think that, IE rules, balance, physical quality, etc.

Whether I think his stuff is a "labour of love" or "a tur..errr.. potato with ASL stamped on it" is neither here nor there.

oh definitely... I might not have made it clear enough, and sure was not criticizing the .. haha.. criticism of him on DM. I know I have in other threads sung the praises of the Desperation Morale site, not just for warning me of that turkey of the product, but also in general the wealth of ASL products out there that I was completely unfamiliar with. I didn't exactly agree with the author placing as much blame on Will Bill as the buyers.. but that is here or there and has been the gist of my posts here. I love that website, and has been nothing but helpful for many I'm sure, not just me.

 

[Pitman]

Wild Bill Wilder is fully aware that he is churning crappy stuff out.

 

[micky]

Wild Bill Wilder is fully aware that he is churning crappy stuff out.

hahahah.. I would suppose he is. I take it that the DM site is yours... love your site. It's been a real help as a returning player.

 

[Pitman]

Thanks for the kind words; I appreciate them.