Save Game vs. Save Game As

[JimWhite]

I just updated VASSAL from 3.2.15 to 3.2.17 and I noticed something new (to me)...that may be an issue for somebody who does not realize it. Of course...this may have been discussed already but I'm throwing it out there just in case.

Anyway...during the morning I launched 3.2.17 with VASL 6.4 and was building a setup to send to an opponent. When I went to save it I saw 2 options now (Save Game and Save Game As) so I choose the latter...selected the directory and filename...and went on my way.

Fast forward to later in the day...and bear in mind that I never shut down VASSAL or VASL. My VotG opponent created a room in VASL...I jumped in...and we started playing. At the completion of the player turn I went to save and accidentally clicked Save Game. Well it saved it...but since I didn't open the file to start with...my opponent did...I was like hmmmm...how did it know what file name to use and where to save it?

So I looked around...and my worst suspicion was confirmed. Choosing Save Game appears to automatically overwrite the last file that was opened/saved by VASL...in this case my setup file I had worked on earlier in the day. Luckily I had already emailed it to him.

So unless I'm missing something...guys better be aware of this potential issue. Until somebody tells me otherwise I guess I'm just going to remember to shut down VASSAL/VASL each time before starting something new.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Yes .. so I added a new item in my VASL workflow .. I always do a "SAVE AS" under a new name before I start a new game.

 

[Michael R]

Yes I noticed that as well. I no longer use Save Game. I always use Save Game As so I can see the file name being used.

 

[von Marwitz]

So unless I'm missing something...guys better be aware of this potential issue. Until somebody tells me otherwise I guess I'm just going to remember to shut down VASSAL/VASL each time before starting something new.

We have to adjust our habits. Basically, this is a good change I think. But just yesterday, I fell into the same trap:

I had just finished one of my (rather elaborate) VASL files and began to work on the next one, when...
You guessed it. One VASL file for naught and I had to start over. Luckily, I keep some textfiles for the VC/SSR and picture separately as this allows for easier formatting the HTML code before copying/pasting the content into a draggable overlay-label. So not all of the work was in vain.

von Marwitz

 

[bprobst]

Basically, this is a good change I think.

Um, no. Speaking from a purely IT viewpoint, this is a disastrous change. If any business-type software behaved in the same fashion, the company responsible would be pilloried, and deservedly so. "Save As" should always ask for the file name and location -- which is fine, good and correct. A simple "Save" should never just assume that you want to give the file the same name as the last, possibly completely unrelated file that you were working on. The realities of human behaviour would mean that you would be constantly overwriting the contents of one file with something completely unrelated -- and if you don't have backups, then that original file is lost forever. Businesses could fail because of that kind of thing! A plain "Save" should only operate "silently" when the file being worked on was explicitly opened by the software in this current session; if the file was not opened in the current session (or if no file was opened at all!), then "Save" defaults automatically to "Save As". Indeed, that's how every other software package I've ever seen or used behaves. This recent change to VASSAL can only be classed as a bug, and a major one at that. Worse than that, it's a change that defies all logic.

New VASSAL/VASL users now have to be told: "See that 'Save' option on the menu? Never, ever use that option, it will fuck you up." That's not good programming by anyone's definition.

 

[uckelman]

A simple "Save" should never just assume that you want to give the file the same name as the last, possibly completely unrelated file that you were working on.

It has been standard application behavior for decades that Save As prompts for a filename and on a successful write makes that file the current file, while Save writes to the current file without prompting if there is a current file. The change in 3.2.17 is that we made VASSAL follow standard application behavior. There is nothing unusual and should be nothing unexpected about how Save works now.

 

[von Marwitz]

It has been standard application behavior for decades that Save As prompts for a filename and on a successful write makes that file the current file, while Save writes to the current file without prompting if there is a current file. The change in 3.2.17 is that we made VASSAL follow standard application behavior. There is nothing unusual and should be nothing unexpected about how Save works now.

Correct, indeed.

We just need to readjust our habits with regard to VASL, which should serve no problem.
And if it is a problem, we might remember the old ASL-wisdom:

"No better way than learning the hard way."

von Marwitz

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

The way to handle it would be that if one clicks "Cancel" when it asks for a comment, the entire save should be canceled. This is maybe a VASSAL issue rather than a VASL one?

 

[Robin Reeve]

We have to adjust our habits. Basically, this is a good change I think. But just yesterday, I fell into the same trap...

It is not a good change at all, especially as it is the upper option in the menu.
I continuously fall into the trap and save a game, crushing the previous file.
It is very annoying, as I like to be able to see the evolution of the game - and possibly get pictures of the different stages of the scenario to illustrate an AAR.
I would strongly suggest that "Save game" were totally removed from the menu.
Using "Save game as" to make it a "Save game" is exremely simple : click on it, the press "Enter" twice (once to confrim, once to crush the previous same named file).

 

[Robin Reeve]

We just need to readjust our habits with regard to VASL, which should serve no problem.

That is approaching the problem the wrong way.
VASL should ease use and any innovation should not harm well used habits - especially when an error is irreversible.
I don't care if most programs have "Save" as the first option - especially when, as it is the case of the Office suite, you have automated backups (e.g. set every 5 minutes) which can help retrieve a previous version of the file, when you clicked Ctrl-S too fast (or simply, you can go back with Ctrl-z and forth with Ctrl-y).
Here, if you save the game and crush the previous, same named file, you can use the cancel button to go back to the start of the file, but there is no "uncancel" button to get back to where you arrived (you lose all the DR/dr and all the changes generated by the battle results).

 

[Robin Reeve]

Yes .. so I added a new item in my VASL workflow .. I always do a "SAVE AS" under a new name before I start a new game.

That is OK if you don't name precisely the status reached.
For PBeM I would do it that way (numbering each file 001, 002, etc.), but otherwise, I like to have the details in the title of the file. For an example : "J167 in Deadly Combat - T3 Ger DFPh.vsav"

 

[zgrose]

I think the problem here isn't that people don't know the difference between Save and As but that VASSAL isn't being properly informed of when to clear the current save name. There is a mismatch between what VASSAL thinks you're doing (continuing the edit/play the last game) and what the user thinks they are doing (starting/entering a new game). YMMV.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I think the problem here isn't that people don't know the difference between Save and As but that VASSAL isn't being properly informed of when to clear the current save name. There is a mismatch between what VASSAL thinks you're doing (continuing the edit/play the last game) and what the user thinks they are doing (starting/entering a new game). YMMV.

The problem is that 6.4.0 introduced the change.
Or is it VASSAL as a whole which introduced it, rather than the VASL module?

 

[bprobst]

It has been standard application behavior for decades that Save As prompts for a filename and on a successful write makes that file the current file, while Save writes to the current file without prompting if there is a current file. The change in 3.2.17 is that we made VASSAL follow standard application behavior. There is nothing unusual and should be nothing unexpected about how Save works now.

I don't think you understand what "save" is doing. What you say is absolutely correct when there is a current file. What VASSAL is doing now is assuming (without asking) that the last file you worked on is the current file, whether it actually is the current file or not. When your "current file" is the one your opponent opened (and you just synced with it), VASSAL should be treating that as a "new file" (and thus do a "Save As") not something you've opened previously (which would be a completely different game).

THIS IS A BUG, AND NOT A SMALL ONE.

VASL/VASSAL worked perfectly and correctly for years without this change, and now it causes grief. There's a clue there, and not a small one! NEVER FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKEN.

 

[Michael R]

Or is it VASSAL as a whole which introduced it, rather than the VASL module?

VASSAL 3.2.17

 

[Michael R]

I did some testing.
In an new VASL session, I did FILE, NEW and picked a map. Then I executed a SAVE. VASL asked me for a file name.
I saved the file as TestGame01. I closed TestGame01.
I did FILE, NEW again and picked a different map. Then I executed a SAVE. VASL did not ask me for a file name. I closed the current game file.
I opened TestGame01 and the contents were that of the second game, which is wrong.

To me, VASSAL should clear its FILE NAME variable upon the execution of the NEW command.

 

[JimWhite]

To me, VASSAL should clear its FILE NAME variable upon the execution of the NEW command.

Actually it should clear it when a game/map gets closed due to the possible synchronization issue I mentioned in the OP.

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Actually, it should not allow a save without a cancel option, as it is all too easy to choose "Save" rather than "Save As" accidentally....

Edit: Speaking for myself, that is.

 

[clubby]

Absolutely the most annoying "feature" I've ever encountered. I had to redo one setup completely and I had to get one setup sent back to me via email from my opponent because I overwrote it.

 

[Juzek]

I did some testing.
In an new VASL session, I did FILE, NEW and picked a map. Then I executed a SAVE. VASL asked me for a file name.
I saved the file as TestGame01. I closed TestGame01.
I did FILE, NEW again and picked a different map. Then I executed a SAVE. VASL did not ask me for a file name. I closed the current game file.
I opened TestGame01 and the contents were that of the second game, which is wrong.

To me, VASSAL should clear its FILE NAME variable upon the execution of the NEW command.

Yes, this is the issue. Starting a new game should not over-write the last-saved file, which is what is happening now. I ran the same test as Michael R and had the same result. When a new game is started the default file name should not be the last-saved name. From my experience this is not the usual procedure. If I start a new Word/Excel/Access (or whatever) file and choose "Save", I'm prompted for a file name if its a new file. The new file is not over-written on the last file saved.

If I've started a new game and select "Save", I expect to have the option to name the new file, not over-write the last file I saved without the option to rename. The current version does not give me that option.

I can learn to use "Save As" for VASL, but that's not the way it works in any other operating system I know, and it would be nice if this could be changed.