SASL Red Barricades question

zzzzz

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Hi there, am playing the first scenario of SASL Red Barricades. Just wondering if I should apply the +2 drm for activation checks on city mapboards. Stalingrad is obviously a city, but it's not listed on the table which the rule refers to. If I apply it, it will make a massive difference to the scenario. Thanks in advance.
 

WBRP

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References would be handy here because simply being Built Up (Table A9e on page S24) is too ambiguous because that could still be City or Village (ignoring the reality argument of the absurdity of the RB map being a Village). Count your buildings: if there are more than 49 buildings on the map, then it is a 'City mapboard' according to the SASL I Chapter S divider. According to the same divider, Village boards have 19-49 buildings.

Note that SASL II seems to be devoid of the definition of Village vs City. I can't spot it on the fold-out version's drms for 5.1 and Table A9 just points you to 4.12, which only defines Built-Up as 19 or more 'rubble-Locations/Buildings' with 'each rowhouse hex' being 'considered a separate building'. The SASL I rules are no better and the S1 Terms & Definitions in both versions are also of no help.

So, score one black mark against the SASL II editors for dropping info contained in SASL I.

Yes you do. The RB map is a built-up map.
 

dlazov

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Since your playing SASL you can do what you like.

I personally would use the +2 since it seems very obvious to me what the RB map is, a city of built up areas encompassing both multiple and singular stone and wooden construction types with cellars and rooftops present intersected with multiple paved and unpaved roads with sewer locations which contain man hole covers and a culvert as well as a few water obstacles thrown in for good measure irrespective of either SASL 1 or SASL 2 possible inconsistencies and hence using common sense I would therefor apply the +2 for built up areas, but that is just one man's opinion and you can take it with a grain of salt and your mileage may very...

Cheers, top of the morning to you and all that, pip-cheerio...

Damn I need some sleep...get cracking!

hope(s) that/the intent of this post was/was not understood/misunderstood in/improper context of which it was/was not received...or something to that effect...
 

Paullus

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Well the SASL RB was made for SASL I and thusly no reference to City mapboard on the mission card. Now RB SASL is in the reworks and will hopefully make it to be released in a Journal or something (see my blog for more info):devious:
 

WBRP

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If you're still uncertain, quiz Brian Blad (Whizbang1963) for confirmation. RB is definitely a City board by SASL I.
 

Paullus

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In SASL II there is no reference to the number of buildings on the map to decide if it is a City map or a Village map. It's not needed as there are prefixes on the City and Villages maps in table A9 telling what maps are City maps, Village maps or neither. Every new mapboard needs this prefix if it is to be known as a City or Village map.
 

Paullus

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zzzzz you could try this if you like:

4.12 S? PLACEMENT ON BUILT-UP MAPBOARDS: The entire Red Barricades map is considered a City board, even if only part of it is used.

5.1 ACTIVATION CHECK: The AC drm on the chapter S divider are NA; instead use the following AC drm:
Cumulative AC drm:
-1 if S? is in a VPO Location.
-1 if ≥ 1 already activated ENEMY unit that is in Advance Attitude is within two hexes/the same building as the S?
-1 if Russian ENEMY and S? is in/ADJACENT to a Factory or a Fanatic Strongpoint Location.
-1 if German ENEMY and S? is in a Factory or a level 2 building Location.


These modifiers are currently being used in the playtest of new RB SASL rules.
:)
 

dlazov

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Yes, perhaps that is why I was confused about zzzzzz questions or queries...
 

n3ddy

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I wasn't aware there were new rules! When will they be available? I presume that they'll be an official release?
 

Paullus

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Yes there might be new rules. I'm currently running a playtest of a new set of rules including rules for that enables you to play the existing CGs in chapter O. This is done in the same way as Tom is doing with the VotG SASL rules so I'm really adapting them for RB. I'm also having some new missions developed in this project. This is done with the :thumup: by Perry so I'm hoping for a MMP release in the end.

If you are interested in participating in the playtest please send me a PM.
 

zzzzz

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5.1 ACTIVATION CHECK: The AC drm on the chapter S divider are NA; instead use the following AC drm:
Cumulative AC drm:
-1 if S? is in a VPO Location.
-1 if ≥ 1 already activated ENEMY unit that is in Advance Attitude is within two hexes/the same building as the S?
-1 if Russian ENEMY and S? is in/ADJACENT to a Factory or a Fanatic Strongpoint Location.
-1 if German ENEMY and S? is in a Factory or a level 2 building Location.
I like these rules. I am playing Russians trying to take the factory, which has an S? in every hex, including rooftops. With an activation occurring on every roll other than a 5 or 6, and all fanatic in fortified locations, it's rather difficult.
 

peterk1

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I liked the custom activation check rules (which are very similar to these) as well when I tested Tom's VoTG stuff.

My only issue...IMHO when the ENEMY is on the advance, there should really be no bonuses for terrain or VPO, only proximity to already activated units. It doesn't really make much sense changing the probability based on the hex in which LOS with the advance is first established.
 

Paullus

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I liked the custom activation check rules (which are very similar to these) as well when I tested Tom's VoTG stuff.

My only issue...IMHO when the ENEMY is on the advance, there should really be no bonuses for terrain or VPO, only proximity to already activated units. It doesn't really make much sense changing the probability based on the hex in which LOS with the advance is first established.
I think yoy are correct in many ways Peter.
>-1 if S? is in a VPO Location.
When attacking, German or Russian, the VPO is of no importance for the advance. The only thing that could be the result is that VPO locations got few activated ENEMY units and that you could counter attack and take those easily. This is only important if you are playing a CG (the new form of CGs) or the VPOs are important for Mission Victory

>-1 if ≥ 1 already activated ENEMY unit that is in Advance Attitude is within >two hexes/the same building as the S?
This is always importan.

>-1 if Russian ENEMY and S? is in/ADJACENT to a Factory or a Fanatic >Strongpoint Location.
This could be important if the ENEMY is Russian and attacking Factories.

>-1 if German ENEMY and S? is in a Factory or a level 2 building Location.
For an attacking German ENEMY i think this one is not needed in Missions.

What do you think?
 

peterk1

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In normal SASL when the ENEMY is advancing, there are TEM/VPO based bonuses to the activation but there I don't have an issue with them for a few reasons...

o boards tend to be more open so the building bonuses don't come into play as often
o the advances occur starting at a greater distance from the front lines, so units are usually always activated long before they are ADJACENT (barring a poor human setup or bad luck)

and more importantly

o the human player is usually trying to cover a large amount of territory with very small forces. The bonus for proximity to the VPO serves as a punishment to the player for not adequately covering the approaches. The player usually has an opportunity to set up so that all ACs take place in open ground.

In Stalingrad games, most Suspect counters either get activated when ADJACENT (crossing a road or already in the same building) or when 2 hexes away (in a building preparing to cross the road). You don't want to skew the odds too much between those two cases, because the case is pretty much determined by pure chance.

Regarding favoring the factories...I don't know. Island of Fire made it pretty clear that the Russians fought hard for the factories but essentially lost them quickly, so historically it doesn't make sense. But the RB rules give the Fanatic bonus for factories so perhaps you want to skew those.

Regarding VPOs that did not activate sufficient units. Why not guarantee a successful actuvation for very important strongpoints? I made that suggestion to Tom as well in VoTG. The train station was always too lightly held. There should always be at least one unit in each hex, as most humans would set-up.

Or multiple Suspects in each of those hexes? But that runs a serious chance of generating overstacking problems.
 
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Paullus

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What you say Peter make sense. I think the old RB missions needs a bit of tweaking and perhaps custom AC drms for every mission dependant on S? Attitude.

Did you try any of Tom Votg SASL CGs? If so what did you think of the custom CG AC drms?
 

peterk1

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What you say Peter make sense. I think the old RB missions needs a bit of tweaking and perhaps custom AC drms for every mission dependant on S? Attitude.

Did you try any of Tom Votg SASL CGs? If so what did you think of the custom CG AC drms?
Yes, I did. I playtested the small Central Railway Station CG a little while ago and it was probably one of the most fun wargame experiences I ever had. There's a full AAR with pictures in the SASL thread a little bit down.

The custom AC table makes a lot of sense for the Stalingrad maps because the usual rules were not written really with Stalingrad in mind. They were meant to be more generic.

I made the same comment though about the ENEMY advances for Tom's rules that I made here. It just seems to play better if you never take terrain into account anywhere for Advancing units. Let the Russians have the same odds of attacking anywhere on the map no matter where the activation check happens.
 

Paullus

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Thanks Peter. I'll have a word with Tom. I think we should have the same AC tables for the VotG module and the RB module. :)
 
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