Same Hex LOS Factory Floor to Factory Roof Top

George Kelln

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Same Hex LOS Factory Floor to Factory Roof Top;

In the picture, is there a LOS between the 4-4-7 on the Factory Roof and the 5-4-8 on Factory floor?

Where in the rules is this situation stated?

If there is a LOS, what is the TEM for each unit?


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Binchois

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I don't believe RF has anything new to say about this. It should fall under the vanilla rulebook: B23.8 ("Rooftops are treated the same as another building floor level...") and B23.88:

... A unit at rooftop level in a Factory Rooftop Access Point being attacked by a same-hex ground-level unit receives Height Advantage +1 TEM (23.81), while the ground-level unit receives Factory TEM (and no additional TEM for a Fortified Building Location) if attacked by that Rooftop unit. Both units may use PBF (since they are ADJACENT; A7.21).​
So, no LOS or fire unless at an access point.
 

Bill Kohler

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Just to be sure I understand, given a Factory where Rooftops are in play . . .

(a) Units on the Rooftop that are not in a Factory Rooftop Access Point (B23.87) have no LOS to units on the ground floor of the same Factory.
--There is no LOS between 20C7 ground floor and C8 rooftop.
--There is no LOS between B6 rooftop and B7 ground floor (a Factory Rooftop Access Point).
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(b) Rooftop units in a Factory Rooftop Access Point can be fired on by units on the ground floor of that Factory only if all units are in the same hex.
--A B6 ground-floor unit cannot fire at B7 rooftop.

(c) There can be LOS, though, from an exterior ground-floor Location, outside of the building through a non-building hexside, to a rooftop unit.
--There is a LOS between D8 ground floor and E7 rooftop.

The entire hexside need not be free of building depictions, just the point where the LOS actually crosses the hexside.
--There is a LOS between 20T2 ground floor and T3 rooftop.
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Are the above statements correct?

Thank you.
 
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FrankH.

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I don't believe RF has anything new to say about this. It should fall under the vanilla rulebook: B23.8 ("Rooftops are treated the same as another building floor level...") and B23.88:

... A unit at rooftop level in a Factory Rooftop Access Point being attacked by a same-hex ground-level unit receives Height Advantage +1 TEM (23.81), while the ground-level unit receives Factory TEM (and no additional TEM for a Fortified Building Location) if attacked by that Rooftop unit. Both units may use PBF (since they are ADJACENT; A7.21).​
So, no LOS or fire unless at an access point.
Umm. There are two different issues.

First is that rooftops are treated as another building level. Since a LOS exists between adjacent building levels, one exists between adjacent factory levels.

Second is that at a factory rooftop acess point the rooftop and the gound level of the factory, in the same hex, are ADJACENT. Therefore in this case PBF applies between the two.

Lastly, RF, or at least RB does have much to say of factories, specifically roofless factory hexes, though that is not pertinent to this specific question raised here. See O5.43.
 

Bill Kohler

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First is that rooftops are treated as another building level. Since a LOS exists between adjacent building levels, one exists between adjacent factory levels.
So are you saying that 20C7 ground level can see and fire at 20C7 Rooftop, and vice versa?

Second is that at a factory rooftop acess point the rooftop and the gound level of the factory, in the same hex, are ADJACENT. Therefore in this case PBF applies between the two.
Yes, this part I understood.

Lastly, RF, or at least RB does have much to say of factories, specifically roofless factory hexes, though that is not pertinent to this specific question raised here. See O5.43.
Yes, roofless factory hexes complicate this whole discussion, so I was leaving them out (for now).

Thank you, Frank.
 
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FrankH.

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So are you saying that 20C7 ground level can see and fire at 20C7 Rooftop, and vice versa?
Yes. This is my understanding. Treat the two locations as ADJACENT building locations (and in the same hex). Of course the rooftop locations in hexes adjacent each other, barring some other unusual issue (though I can't think of any just now) also have LOS to each other.
 

Bill Kohler

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Yes. This is my understanding.
Lester, earlier in this thread, came to the opposite conclusion.

Okay, so I'm doing some more investigation. Looking at O5.43 EX#2 and the following image:
25048
O5.43 EX#2 shows a rooftop unit in K20 having LOS to a ground-level unit in K20 (squads N and K), but K20 is a FRAP, so this LOS we already knew by B23.87.

As for my other LOS questions:
--There is no LOS between 20C7 ground floor and C8 rooftop.
Correct, because O5.43 EX#2 shows no LOS between K15 Rooftop and M15 Ground level. (Squads B and A).

--There is no LOS between B6 rooftop and B7 ground floor (a Factory Rooftop Access Point).
Correct, because O5.43 EX#2 shows no LOS between L15 ground level FRAP and M16 rooftop (squads C and D).

--A B6 ground-floor unit cannot fire at B7 rooftop (a Factory Rooftop Access Point).
Correct, because O5.43 EX#2 shows no LOS between M17 ground level and M16 rooftop FRAP (squads G and D).

--There is a LOS between D8 ground floor and E7 rooftop.
Correct, because O5.43 EX#2 shows an LOS between K20 rooftop and M20 ground floor (squads N and M).

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So that leaves two questions:

--Is there a LOS between 20C7 ground floor and C7 rooftop (not a FRAP)?
My strong suspicion is that this LOS does not exist because B23.88 only addresses TEM for units in a FRAP and not for any other situations, suggesting that there is no LOS: A unit at rooftop level in a Factory Rooftop Access Point being attacked by a same-hex ground-level unit receives Height Advantage +1 TEM (23.81), while the ground-level unit receives Factory TEM (and no additional TEM for a Fortified Building Location) if attacked by that Rooftop unit. Both units may use PBF (since they are ADJACENT; A7.21).

--Is there a LOS between 20T2 ground floor and T3 rooftop (where the LOS just sneaks through a small clear point of the common hexside)?
Answer: Yes, per B25.23.
 
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FrankH.

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Lester, earlier in this thread, came to the opposite conclusion.

Okay, so I'm doing some more investigation. Looking at O5.43 EX#2 and the following image:
View attachment 25048
O5.43 EX#2 shows a rooftop unit in K20 having LOS to a ground-level unit in K20 (squads N and K), but K20 is a FRAP, so this we already knew by B23.87.
------------------------------------------------
So there are two questions outstanding:

--Is there a LOS between 20C7 ground floor and C7 rooftop (not a FRAP)?
--Is there a LOS between 20T2 ground floor and T3 rooftop (where the LOS just sneaks through a small clear point of the common hexside)?
Opps. I was wrong. A FRAP (a printed stairwell or a factory road entrance) is required for there to be a LOS in the same hex.

Edit: I am no longer sure exactly what is the correct answer to this question, after reading B23.25 and B23.26.
 
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volgaG68

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I hesitated to answer the question as I wasn't 100% sure of the answer, but I found this thread with @klasmalmstrom replying. He doesn't offer a citation, but his post alone would make me play it the way he says. I wish I knew where this was explicitly (or inexplicitly) stated. Now whether or not a unit in a FRAP (on the roof) can be fired at by a unit NOT in the same factory hex, I do not know either.

EDIT: Aha, I see how this one is answered anyway!

"--A B6 ground-floor unit cannot fire at B7 rooftop (a Factory Rooftop Access Point).
Correct, because O5.43 EX#2 shows no LOS between M17 ground level and M16 rooftop FRAP (squads G and D)."

 
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