Russian 50 cal HMGs

BigAl737

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Greetings all,

While working up a VASL counter for this guy:

12873

I'm interested in learning more about it. In ASL it functions very similar to this guy:

12874

And apparently to include both being able to dm into this guy (A9.8):

12875

The top counter is found in RB, VotG and RF but there's no dm counter provided. So it seems it utilizes the 50 cal dm counter provided in BV.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, any links to learn more about the first counter would be appreciated. Looking to learn a little history here.

Thanks!

Allan
 

Honza

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I'm not sure the top counter can be dismantled at all.
 

Honza

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A9.8 does say that the Russian .50cal can be dismantled, but I kind of figured that applied to the American style MG and not the Russian style.
 

von Marwitz

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In the past I came across the same thing and wondered about it more than once...

I am listening with interest.

von Marwitz
 

stuh42asl

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The DSHK 12.7MM is the Standard Heavy Machine Gun, it is known as the DShK Model 1938. It is the replacement for Maxim Model 1910, but like the Maxim Medium MG we know it is built on a wheeled carriage with a handle to pull and manuver it. The entire assembly weighs almost 300 lbs, and cannot be disassembled like the Maxim MG.

Please See below :

DShK Model 1938

Heavy Machine Gun (HMG)




The excellent Soviet-era DShK Heavy Machine Gun entered frontline service with the Red Army in 1938 and, in its modernized form, still maintains and extensive field presence today.





Full-sized image #1 of the DShK Model 1938 Heavy Machine Gun (HMG)

1/1

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The Soviet DShK Model 1938 heavy machine gun was developed to a Red Army requirement prior to World War 2 (1939-1945) to replace the aged Maxim Model 1910 (Soviet designation of ("PM M1910"). The newer mark proved to be the same class of weapon as the well-accepted and respected Browning M2 and equally as popular the world over. The Model 1938 served throughout World War 2 with Red Army forces and into the Cold War in a more refined, modernized form. The sheer production numbers have given the DShK series such a reach that the weapon still enjoys widespread use even today (2013).

The Soviet military understood the value of quality heavy machine guns in its arsenal even prior to World War 1 when the Maxim Model 1910 (Soviet designation of "PM M1910") was in use. These weapons were entire systems consisting of the gun with integrated cooling jacket over the barrel, a heavy duty receiver design, basic spade grips, a wheeled carriage and included armored shield for the gunnery crew. The 140lb weapon was chambered for the 7.62x54mmR cartridge and managed a rate-of-fire of 600 rounds per minute through a short-recoil, toggle-locked internal action. The type was produced from 1910 to 1939 and became a stable of Imperial Russian / Soviet military use in that span while also seeing use with the forces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, China, Estonia, Finland, Hungary, Iran, North Korea, Mongolia, Poland, South Korea, the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) and North Vietnam in time. Production was restarted after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 and spanned from then until the end of the war in 1945.

As steady as M1910s were, they proved exceedingly limited for a Soviet military looking to streamline its mobility for a future war with one of its many neighbors. As such, a new design was sought though one with the same in-the-field robustness as the Maxim design. Origins of the DShK series lay in an early initiative that brought together the work of Vasil Degtyaryov and Georgi Shpagin, the new weapon incorporating the gas operation and locking facility developed by the former with the feed mechanism developed by the latter. The design grew into a lengthy (though lighter) weapon chambered for the large 12.7x107mm Soviet heavy machine gun cartridge operating through a rotating cylinder feed system. The rotating system stripped a cartridge from the incoming belt magazine and delivered the cartridge to the chamber ahead of the bolt. The weapon sported a rectangular receiver with dual spade grips for a firm two-hand hold. Sighting was through a basic iron arrangement affixed over the receiver and barrel. The long-running barrel was partially shrouded by a section of cooling fins giving the weapon a throwback look to machine gun designs emerging in the 1920s and early 1930s. The muzzle was capped by a noticeably large brake while the gas cylinder - which was used in the action - was fitted under the barrel. The weapon was issued atop a rather clumsy and heavy steel-framed, two-wheeled carriage with tow arm - the same cumbersome unit of the preceding M1910 mark which, once again, limited the weapon's tactical flexibility. After passing the requisite state trials prior to acceptance, the weapon was adopted and formally recognized in inventory as the "Degtyereva-Shpagina Krupnokaliberny 1938" - or "DShK Model of 1938" or "M1938" for short. The DShK series gun weighed in at 75lb compared to the 140lb unit of the PM M1910.



The DShK became the standard heavy machine gun of the Red Army during World War 2. After the initial rush of German forces into the Soviet Union beginning in June of 1941 (through Operation Barbarossa), the Soviet Army lost much men and equipment during the ensuing confusion and subsequent fighting. Production of new weapons (now at relocated facilities) ramped up to extreme levels and Model 1938 machine guns appeared everywhere an in various battlefield roles as needed - either as suppression-minded offensive artillery-like weapons and defensive fixed gun positions to anti-infantry tank-/vehicle-mounted machine guns and anti-aircraft fixtures at strategic junctures. The DShK gave a good, healthy account of itself in the fighting that followed and became known as a reliable and lethal ranged weapon on par with the competing Browning design - its key detriment being the heavy wheeled carriage having to be towed by several personnel. While each gun element weighed in at a manageable 75lbs, when combined to the carriage, the entire system could exceed the 300lb mark. A slightly revised feed mechanism was adopted in 1940 after frontline experience dictated the change and this produced the "Model 1938/40" with its reworked receiver. Another major feed revision - the "Model 1938/46" (also known as "DShKM") with its revised feed now based on the RP46 belt-fed machine gun - appeared in the post-World War 2 world. The Model 1938 could be found on all manner of Soviet tanks as a cupola weapon or turreted coaxial defense system during World War 2 and a special tripod was developed for its use as standalone anti-aircraft weapon.

The production reach of the DShK Model 1938 series was such that it went on to see extensive combat service all over the world including heavy use in multiple high-level conflicts such as the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1955-1975). The series proved a favorite of Eastern European, Asian, African and Middle East users alike, primarily due to Soviet sway in key regions and governance of nations that, today, now reside independent of Soviet/Russian rule since the collapse of the Empire in 1991. The Model 1938 has still been seen in recent combat, noting such actions in the Libyan Civil War of 2011 and the ongoing Syrian Civil War (2011-present). Coalition forces also faced it in their marches through modern Afghanistan and Iraq following the 2001 and 2003 invasions respectively. The DShK system has seen use by rebels and guerilla fighters atop makeshift "technical" vehicles in all manner of localized fighting against government forces, such is the proven adaptability of the DShK family of machine guns.

The DShK has been produced under license in Czechoslovakia (former), China, Iran, Pakistan, Romania and Yugoslavia (former). Over 70 users worldwide can lay claim to its battlefield usefulness and value.
 

stuh42asl

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The weapon is still used today, I have actually fired it on the range at CFB Gagetown..........it is a nasty piece of kit....That is why I was asking to change the counter. Modern versions do have tripods and vehicle mounts, but WW 2 versions were on wheeled mount, which is a pain in the behind to move around.. It takes two good sized men to manhandle it around, then add in the ammunition, and weapon cleaning kit, spare barrel makes it about 375 lbs. You would need a crew of 4-5 to use it.
 
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stuh42asl

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A9.8 does say that the Russian .50cal can be dismantled, but I kind of figured that applied to the American style MG and not the Russian style.
It applies to the American version , not the Russian
 

ColinJ

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A9.8 is clear that the Russian .50-cal maybe dm, as per the EXC.
9.8 DISMANTLED (dm) SW: Any light mortar of ≥ 4 PP, 76−82mm mortar, or non-Russian HMG/MMG [EXC: Russian 50 Cal. MG] may have its PP halved (FRU) if in a dismantled state.
From the discussion above, it seems the Russian .50cal could be dm for 5PP, like a 76-81mm mortar. What a beast!
Like anything else ASL, house rules can address this, as can an SSR or CG SR.
 

stuh42asl

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A9.8 is clear that the Russian .50-cal maybe dm, as per the EXC.
9.8 DISMANTLED (dm) SW: Any light mortar of ≥ 4 PP, 76−82mm mortar, or non-Russian HMG/MMG [EXC: Russian 50 Cal. MG] may have its PP halved (FRU) if in a dismantled state.
From the discussion above, it seems the Russian .50cal could be dm for 5PP, like a 76-81mm mortar. What a beast!
Like anything else ASL, house rules can address this, as can an SSR or CG SR.
I have looked up the DShK in multiple sources, it can't be disassembled, it is not like the American Version which I think A9.8 specifies as the Russian 50 Cal. The Russian round is a little bigger and was never on a tripod mount. It is Just like the Medium Maxim MG. I fired and moved the WW2 version as well as the modern version. The WW2 version cannot be disassembled.
 
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stuh42asl

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A9.8 is clear that the Russian .50-cal maybe dm, as per the EXC.
9.8 DISMANTLED (dm) SW: Any light mortar of ≥ 4 PP, 76−82mm mortar, or non-Russian HMG/MMG [EXC: Russian 50 Cal. MG] may have its PP halved (FRU) if in a dismantled state.
From the discussion above, it seems the Russian .50cal could be dm for 5PP, like a 76-81mm mortar. What a beast!
Like anything else ASL, house rules can address this, as can an SSR or CG SR.
The Russian 50 CAL refers to the Amercian 50 Cal, not the DShK. The DShK a completely different weapon altogether.
 

stuh42asl

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More information: I went thru the US Department WW2 records regarding Lend Lease equipment, the US Military sent 3100 50 Cal M2 AA, to Russia, they were primarily used for the Shermans and M3 Halftracks. So far from what I have seen they never used the M2 as an infantry support weapon, but I could be wrong.
 

stuh42asl

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I'm sure this is probably true, but does it say that anywhere in the rules? That's what we're looking for.
Nothing in the rules states about the DSHK, but after research, plus my experience on the weapon it does not disassemble. Also like I found above the American 50 Cal was primarily a AA mount for Tanks and halftracks. The Russians made their own version of the 50 cal which is the DShK. I do not think the American 50 Cal was used at Stalingrad either. I am retired military, we had to train on Warsaw pact weapons.
 

BigAl737

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Looks to me like MMP should issue counter errata: Add "no dm" to the back side of the Russian HMG 50 cal provided in RB, VotG and RF.

Thanks for the history lesson! Very interesting.
 

stuh42asl

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Looks to me like MMP should issue counter errata: Add "no dm" to the back side of the Russian HMG 50 cal provided in RB, VotG and RF.

Thanks for the history lesson! Very interesting.
No problem, I enjoyed researching again...My service time allowed me to fire almost all the warsaw pact small arms. I am impressed by the ruggedness of those weapons. I have fired both the M2 50 cal and the DSHK I would say the Russian is better to maintain and repair, and the round is larger than the M2 50 Cal , but in terms of mobility the M2 is better. Now I am not so sure about the more modern versions.
 

pybarrondo

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I am no expert, but here's one on a tripod in anti-aircraft mode. You can see the wheels are removable. The carriage unfolds to form the tripod.

It sure looks to me like it could made more multiman-portable in the field. In any case, it certainly can be dm'd under the existing rules.
 

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BigAl737

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This august group always amazes me with it's knowledge level and connection to resources. Excellent guys...simply excellent.
 

pybarrondo

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What's interesting to me is that the Ma Deuce artwork was used on the Russian counters in the first place, seeing as Beyond Valor came out first, before Paratrooper or Yanks.
 

BigAl737

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Freeze frame at 9:30 and it breaks down to 3 main components plus an ammo box. Is that ASL dm comparable? I don't know. It looks like it though. However, I've never operated, much less seen one in real life. Fact is, I've never even operated an MG of any type. I was an Air Force type. So I defer to the expertise of @stuh42asl

I also agree that the rules currently allow dm. Hmmm...I don't think we've reached a verdict yet between the real world and the ASL world.
 
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