RUN FORREST RUN

Stewart

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The upper level can be ignored. Begs the question though: if the brokie nominated the upper level as its destination, could it step out into the street first, see the enemy unit in R6 and then rout somewhere else?
You are joking right?
He is ADJ to an KEU, and you choose upstairs, then want to increase the distance to that unit, then decrease the distance to that same unit.
You aren't selecting the correct rout direction.
Here you have to go up only
Not all rout paths are created equal.
 

Stewart

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Part of our debate is about when player's omniscience kicks in.
Not sure it's a debate.
The rout rules follow strict requirements, the"omniscience" is simply the skill in which you use them.

Nothing more
 

Stewart

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I have sent this to Perry Cocke together with a link to the thread:

"There is some debate on Game Squad about this part of rule A10.51-

“Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex (even if overstacked) unless that route is through/into a known minefield or FFE, or is not traversable (e.g., through a Blaze, unbridged Water Obstacle, Cliff, etc.). As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh.”

In the attached diagram, the broken unit has to declare Q6 as its rout destination. Rather than simply move directly there, is it permissible for it to commence its rout in O6, (thereby seeing the previously “unknown” (to the routing squad) unit in R6), and thereafter change its rout destination to N5 instead?"


Will post any reply when I receive it.
You posted the wrong question.
This isn't the original question.
 

Stewart

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I'm not the
If truth is based on a majority's opinion...
[Rant mode on]
I would like to tell you that your way to engage rules debates is problematic.
Why do you need to interact with people with so much arrogance ?
Why do you need to constantly be conflictual ?
We all try our best to interpret the rules - and rout rules are among the less easy to grasp (cf. the two page example in the rulebook).
This is not a kindergarten pissing contest and it is not about winners and losers.
Whatever Perry's answer, we will all adapt readily.
I do hope that if it goes your way (as it could well go indeed), you will have the decency not to wave your finger and lecture us with a snarky : "I told you so!"
Let's try to develop congenial interactions: real life is already full of anger and strife. We don't need to bring the BS into our game community.
[Rant mode off]
I'm not the troll that would do that, however, I know I will never receive credit for anything I post here. That much I know..
It's Not even my question, I posted for another, and you revert to an attack on my motives.
Truly sad.


I come off straightforward, and if you think that is arrogant, that's your issue. Having an open mind and not leading personal attacks on posters should be your FIRST priority as a moderator.
And certainly not participating in them.
All the experts aren't the good ol' boys. We all know something the next guy doesn't.
Just give the dang credit instead of crying.
Again BASIC ROUT principles.
Sorry you didn't understand them, I'm not responsible for that

Enjoy your thumbs
 
Last edited:

Doug Leslie

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The brokie could always have chosen N5. it is, like P7, 3 MF away. The real question is, if M6 is not rally terrain, can the brokie now pick N8.
It has to go to Q6 (assuming that it doesn’t rout upstairs) which is 2 MF away.
You posted the wrong question.
This isn't the original question.
Does it matter? I linked to the whole thread and the principle is the same.
 

FrankH.

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What happens if the unit in R6 had been HIP, the routing player moves to O6, and then the player reveals the HIP unit? It's suddenly impossible for the routing unit to reach P7 and there's no way the routing player could have known this was going to happen.

What if the Russian player revealed a HIP unit in P7? What if the unit takes a longer route, but is Interdicted and pinned? Or a SMC is Interdicted and wounded? These are things that the routing player cannot know will happen.

I think you're being to strict in your reading of "as long as it reaches". I think it should be read "as long as it can reach that hex during a single RtPh (disregarding possible enemy units currently out of LOS, possible interdiction, possible HIP fortifications, etc.)".
There are a few questions on this thread but the one that interests me is discussed here.

My interpretation of the "as long as it reaches" concept, etc., is that it is to be interpreted from the viewpoint of the information available to the routing unit, at the specific time it has that information, meaning that as long as the routing unit legitimately attempts in an otherwise legal method to reach its designated route destination, ignoring any new information the routing unit may obtain but has not yet done so, it may move in any way it wants to, as long as it does not violate any explicitly written rule, and it follows all the explicitly written rules.

So I agree with what you have written here.

However, I could be wrong in this. Certainly curious in any case.
 

FrankH.

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The upper level can be ignored. Begs the question though: if the brokie nominated the upper level as its destination, could it step out into the street first, see the enemy unit in R6 and then rout somewhere else?
I think the answer to this is no. A routing unit cannot make a move that, at the time it does so, it has the information (it knows) this move will make it impossible to reach its designated route destination.
 

Doug Leslie

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Getting home to mom and apple pie.

Punching a bit above my weight class, so I apologize if I am missing something obvious. I am not sure it really matters, but I thought folks might be a bit more comfortable with an example where a routing unit is not taking the shortest rout path so as to avoid interdiction. So putting a slightly different spin on this, can the broken German squad in the example below select P7 as it rout target? If so, can it choose O6->O7->P7 as it rout path, allowing it to recalculate a new rout target upon reaching O6? Assume all buildings are ground level only. Note that there is a building in N8.

View attachment 19223

I think the answer to this is no. A routing unit cannot make a move that, at the time it does so, it has the information (it knows) this move will make it impossible to reach its designated route destination.
i know. My comment was tongue in cheek.
 

Doug Leslie

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Getting home to mom and apple pie.

Punching a bit above my weight class, so I apologize if I am missing something obvious. I am not sure it really matters, but I thought folks might be a bit more comfortable with an example where a routing unit is not taking the shortest rout path so as to avoid interdiction. So putting a slightly different spin on this, can the broken German squad in the example below select P7 as it rout target? If so, can it choose O6->O7->P7 as it rout path, allowing it to recalculate a new rout target upon reaching O6? Assume all buildings are ground level only. Note that there is a building in N8.

View attachment 19223
If my side of the debate is correct, it has to surrender if it chooses P7 as its destination. For that reason it should choose N5 or O7 which are equidistant and can be reached safely through O6.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If my side of the debate is correct, it has to surrender if it chooses P7 as its destination. For that reason it should choose N5 or O7 which are equidistant and can be reached safely through O6.
Since the unit has an Interdiction free route to N5 or O7, it can still choose P7 as the rout target, and it would not Surrender doing so.
 

Doug Leslie

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Since the unit has an Interdiction free route to N5 or O7, it can still choose P7 as the rout target, and it would not Surrender doing so.
Since the unit has an Interdiction free route to N5 or O7, it can still choose P7 as the rout target, and it would not Surrender doing so.
True. The issue then is whether it has to take the shortest route and accept interdiction or plan a longer route and not reach O7 at all.
 

klasmalmstrom

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True. The issue then is whether it has to take the shortest route and accept interdiction or plan a longer route and not reach O7 at all.
That is the question/issue yes, as in the original post.

One could also throw in the case when there's a minefield/FFE (which one can choose not to rout through) in hex P6.
 

Vinnie

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Getting home to mom and apple pie.

Punching a bit above my weight class, so I apologize if I am missing something obvious. I am not sure it really matters, but I thought folks might be a bit more comfortable with an example where a routing unit is not taking the shortest rout path so as to avoid interdiction. So putting a slightly different spin on this, can the broken German squad in the example below select P7 as it rout target? If so, can it choose O6->O7->P7 as it rout path, allowing it to recalculate a new rout target upon reaching O6? Assume all buildings are ground level only. Note that there is a building in N8.

View attachment 19223
Using the illustration in this post may be the best way to craft a yes/no question for Perry to answer. I think we do need to craftvone carefully to avoid him having to tease out what we are asking. Actually, its not so much for him to tease out but for others who may encounter the situation and doubt in the question can create the same problem.
All buildings are single storey.
The broken unit declares a rout to P7.
  1. Ignoring all enemy units, may it rout through O6, O7? (Might not need this bit as its pretty much agreed).
  2. May it rout initially to O6 despite the fact that this would not be the shortest route and in doing so it can no longer reach the intended rout destination due to having to move closer to the now known enemy unit in R6?
  3. If the answer to the above is yes, may the unit now ignore both N5 and O7 as they are no further away from known enemy units and as a result continue the rout to N8?
 

STAVKA

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What matters is what the rule says.

At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh...

When the rule talks about a routing unit designating its destination, what it of course means is that the player who controls that unit must make the designation. Similarly, when it says that the unit must attempt to reach its destination during that RtPh, it means that the player controlling it must ensure that it makes the attempt. Cardboard counters don't have the capacity to make that kind of decision. :)
The rout rules set out the parameters within which the player may choose the destination but, once that choice is made, it seems to me that he must comply with the very clear direction of A10.51. He must attempt to move the routing unit to its chosen destination. If, instead, he chooses a circuitous route (incurring interdiction into the bargain) with the clear intention of not moving the routing unit to that destination, I really don't see how that complies with what the rule says that he must do. It is doing the opposite.
Keep repeating your argument in the same post will not help, you are wrong in your rule know-how and miss the point how rules are written.
 

Larry

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Keep repeating your argument in the same post will not help, you are wrong in your rule know-how and miss the point how rules are written.
And that the rules are interconnected, sometimes in different sections, sometimes in different chapters, sometimes in a different product.
 

Doug Leslie

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Quite variable; sometimes less than a week, sometimes more than six months.
Sometimes not at all. Or at least, if a response has come in, I might have missed it on a couple of occasions. Definitely no response to this one so far.
 
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