RUN FORREST RUN

Robert Fabbro

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The unit in R6 is not Known to the affected unit. See the index which defines a Known Enemy Unit as "(any unconcealed, non-prisoner enemy unit—even one
which is broken or in Melee—which the unit in question currently has a LOS to)."

Also refer to the Comprehensive Example on Page A27. The rout of the Russian squad in hex J4 describes exactly this situation. Part way through its rout it encounters a German unit that was not in its LOS at the start of its rout.
 
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Doug Leslie

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The unit in R6 is not Known (since it's out of LOS) to the broken unit when it starts it rout.
Does that matter? How is it different from-

20.21 RtPh: Any broken Infantry unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible unconcealed [errata included] Interdictor is Known to it),...?

So, applying this rule, a unit surrenders because it will be interdicted by a unit of whose existence it is unaware. Does that not establish the principle that routing units are clairvoyant to some extent?

The unit in R8 isn't known to the routing unit but it is still visible and unconcealed. Is A10.51 not pretty prescriptive here? The routing unit can reach P7 using a legal rout route, so is this not what it has to do?
 

klasmalmstrom

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Does that not establish the principle that routing units are clairvoyant to some extent?
That's a specific rule for Interdiction/surrending - does not mean it applies to other rules...

See e.g., the A10.5 EX....
19199

If all the German units where "known" the the broken Russian it could not rout at all - but it can since the lower one is out of LOS and thus not Known.
 

nekengren2

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Sorry mate. It's NOT Open Ground. It would NOT be -1 FFMO for a shot into the hex (even though no TEM applies to that shot).

0 TEM does not automatically = Open Ground

This may well be one of those "I've been playing that wrong for so long" moments for you :D:D
yes. just brain fart.
 

STAVKA

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Thank you Stavka
1st answer in 47 views.
This is a STANDARD routing situation.
How can he choose M6 over N5? N5 was still further away from the starting hex of routing..

Could he rout to N8 if M6 was OG?
The squad can choose M6 over N5 since N5 is equidistant to the Russian unit and could ignore N5, but still pass through it to avoid interdiction.

Yes, if M6 was OG, N8 could be declared as the new rout destination.
 

Doug Leslie

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The unit in R6 is not Known to the affected unit. See the index which defines a Known Enemy Unit as "(any unconcealed, non-prisoner enemy unit—even one
which is broken or in Melee—which the unit in question currently has a LOS to)."

Also refer to the Comprehensive Example on Page A27. The rout of the Russian squad in hex J4 describes exactly this situation. Part way through its rout it encounters a German unit that was not in its LOS at the start of its rout.
I don't think that is the same situation at all. The rout rules are pretty clear that you can rout towards or even adjacent to an enemy unit that is not known to the routing unit. The route taken in the A27 example is the only one that the 4-4-7 can take.

In the situation giving rise to this thread, the routing unit can easily reach its chosen destination. All that it has to do is take the shortest route through P6. A10.51 states that a routing unit must attempt to reach its destination. If the omniscient player decides to send it on a longer route with the clear purpose of its reaching a different destination, I don't see how that complies with the pretty mandatory terms of the rule.
 
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Robert Fabbro

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The rout rules are pretty clear that you can rout towards or even adjacent to an enemy unit that is not known to the routing unit.
That's exactly what I am saying.

In the situation giving rise to this thread, the routing unit can easily reach its chosen destination. All that it has to do is take the shortest route through P6. A10.51 states that a routing unit must attempt to reach its destination.
Agreed, especially regarding P6.

I think we are on the same page but getting hung up on different things. I am confident that if we were face to face across the gameboard, with a beverage of choice, there would be no issue here!
 

STAVKA

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I don't think that is the same situation at all. The rout rules are pretty clear that you can rout towards or even adjacent to an enemy unit that is not known to the routing unit. The route taken in the A27 example is the only one that the 4-4-7 can take.

In the situation giving rise to this thread, the routing unit can easily reach its chosen destination. All that it has to do is take the shortest route through P6. A10.51 states that a routing unit must attempt to reach its destination. If the omniscient player decides to send it on a longer route with the clear purpose of its reaching a different destination, I don't see how that complies with the pretty mandatory terms of the rule.
This is not how the rule is played at all and for good reasons, it has been written to avoid that only the non-routing units can be very omniscient during the rout phase towards routing units.
 

Doug Leslie

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This is not how the rule is played at all and for good reasons, it has been written to avoid that only the non-routing units can be very omniscient during the rout phase towards routing units.
What matters is what the rule says.

At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh...

When the rule talks about a routing unit designating its destination, what it of course means is that the player who controls that unit must make the designation. Similarly, when it says that the unit must attempt to reach its destination during that RtPh, it means that the player controlling it must ensure that it makes the attempt. Cardboard counters don't have the capacity to make that kind of decision. :)
The rout rules set out the parameters within which the player may choose the destination but, once that choice is made, it seems to me that he must comply with the very clear direction of A10.51. He must attempt to move the routing unit to its chosen destination. If, instead, he chooses a circuitous route (incurring interdiction into the bargain) with the clear intention of not moving the routing unit to that destination, I really don't see how that complies with what the rule says that he must do. It is doing the opposite.
 
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Robin Reeve

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But it was unable to rout to its originally chosen target hex due to coming within LOS of a previously unknown enemy unit. So you refigure its new rout destination from its current hex just as if it was starting there. A10.51 line 23: "If a newly-Known enemy unit prevents this, a new destination is re-figured from that point."
How does that newly revealed enemy in R6 prevent the rout through P6 to P7?
The brokie is not moving closer to it.
 

Larry

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How does that newly revealed enemy in R6 prevent the rout through P6 to P7?
The brokie is not moving closer to it.
He takes the longer, permissible, route through O6. Then he sees R6 and cannot move closer.

By risking pinning/reducing, he opens up more destinations re-figuring the rout from O6.
 

Doug Leslie

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He takes the longer, permissible, route through O6. Then he sees R6 and cannot move closer.

By risking pinning/reducing, he opens up more destinations re-figuring the rout from O6.
It's not a permissible route unless it results in the routing unit reaching its original destination hex.

Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex (even if overstacked) unless that route is through/into a known minefield or FFE, or is not traversable (e.g., through a Blaze, unbridged Water Obstacle, Cliff, etc.). As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh.
 

Robin Reeve

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He takes the longer, permissible, route through O6. Then he sees R6 and cannot move closer.

By risking pinning/reducing, he opens up more destinations re-figuring the rout from O6.
This is not allowed.
It must follow a rout path that allows it to reach the rout destination.
 

Jeff Sewall

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Suppose that the enemy unit in R6 was concealed, and the routing unit chose to rout to P7 via O6 as in the example, which is a perfectly legal rout. After the routing unit enters O6, the enemy unit in R6 drops concealment, which makes continuing to rout to P7 illegal. Are you saying that the rout must be started over because he can no longer reach his stated destination? I don't think so. Or that the concealed unit must declare his intention to drop concealment before the rout is started? Again, I don't think so.
 

Doug Leslie

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If the unit in R6 was concealed, why would the routing unit choose to rout via Q6? But yes, if the German player decides for whatever reason to take interdiction in Q6, the Russian player has the option of dropping concealment in R6 to prevent the broken unit from routing towards it. Or he could keep concealment in which event the German unit has taken interdiction to no end and still has to go to P7 anyway. The point is that the German player can't deliberately pursue a course of action that he knows for a fact will result in its being impossible to comply with the requirements of 10.51. It is very rarely that I disagree with Klas but the rule seems pretty clear to me.
 

Martin Mayers

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Getting silly this now. People have directly quoted a very explicit rule and people are still arguing the toss.
 

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The unit may not choose a new rout destination. A10.51 Direction; near the end of the paragraph. A new destination is chosen only if prevented from reaching its current destination by a enemy newly in LOS. Nothing else allows a new destination.
"If a newly-Known enemy unit prevents this, a new destination is re-figured from that point. "
What is his destination then?
 

Stewart

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Note the wording pertaining to this..."AS LONG AS IT REACHES THAT HEX etc.. etc." As long as it reaches that hex it can do certain stuff but not in a way which makes it unable to reach that originally chosen hex.
This simply isn't correct. He doesn't have Foresight i.e. LOS to the unit in R6. Going to O6 still allows him to get to his intended hex...OOPPS enemy units are seen...we now have to choose another location.
 
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