Rules of the forum

[Dr Zaius]

Guys, I post this every once in a while just to "keep an honest man honest" as they say. The forums have been running a little hot lately and it doesn't look like there is going to be any lack of fuel for the fire either. What does that mean? It means there are plenty of controversial issues for us to debate around here. Some of them hit close to home for all of us in one way or another, thus we need to remind ourselves of that from time to time.

The Iraq issue. Yeah, I know it's on everyone's mind right now. It's never far from my thoughts either. It is a war, thus it is appropriate for us to debate it, talk about it, and conjecture on it in these forums. It goes without saying that it's a controversial issue for some people and it's doubtful that many people are going to change their opinions at this late stage of the game.

I want to see honest, open discussions here, however, I do not want to see this one issue slowly begin to transform this club into something it isn't. We need to step back and take a look at what the club is an what it stands for. We have wargamers of all skill and experience levels here from a variety of locations around the world. Opinions and worldviews are going to clash, that's a given. Nevertheless, please remain civil.

I know that's easier said than done. But we can't allow the heated debate over the Iraq issue to overwhelm everything else. We need more mentors and quality articles around here. Some of you are rather obviously capable of writing long, in-depth material. Once in a while we might consider turning our energies back to wargaming or suppot thereof. :cheeky:

Allow me to give a tiny bit of advice here. This is not an invitation to further debate, I'm merely trying to get people to step back and get some perspective.

For those that support the Iraq coalition I would say people need to remain calm and quietly attempt to explain why they support the effort. Acknowledging mistakes when they do happen is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of confidence and character. No one is going to be convinced of the coalition's good intentions with insults or threats. Just understand that there are some people who disagree with the whole idea and that's just the way it is. The issue isn't as cut and dry as some of us would like it to be.

For those that oppose it. It's time for some of you to recognize that much of this is old news and move on. The coalition members aksed the UN to join and the UN refused. The coalition members felt they had an obligation to act and that's that. Stop searching for secret conspiracy theories and attempting to portray every issue in the worst possible light. Many of you know you're guilty of being horribly one-sided. Show some character and back off a little bit.

There is enough of "my country is better than yours" rhetoric on this forum for everyone to share in the blame. That's natural and expected to an extent, however, the anti-American bashing has reached a crescendo of late. We get the point. For whatever reason you're upset or don't like America, it's actions or its traditions. Fine, whatever. The vast majority of posters on these forums -- from all nations -- don't take it too seriously and just go about their business. There are a few of you who insist in pushing this into every single thread. I will not allow this forum to be turned into a vehicle to intentionally attack the US on an hourly basis. Criticism is fine gentlemen, but give it a break once in a while okay? Some of you sound like a broken record and it's starting to get old. For better or worse, Americans are dying, Germans and French are not. Like it or not that means you need to tread extra lightly.

If the issues are just too sensitive and you find you can't post on this particular issue without it being like a raw nerve, then switch over and talk about military history or something for a while. After all, that is supposed to be the main foucs here.

 

[JAMiAM]

My apologies for any logs that I've thrown onto the fire.

What about girls, fast cars and booze? We can still talk about them, right?

 

[Foggy]

How about easy girls -faster cars - which tank is better period from any date?

 

[Temujin]

I agree Don, but also i tend to think that some people cannot get around the fact that expressing an alternative view to their own is not a form of criticism or attack. They are simply competing viewpoints that exist out there in the world and have academic and practical support.

 

[Ivan Rapkinov]

no more Republican vs Democrat debates - they degenerate in Republicans vs the World. And the World doesn;t undertsand where the Republicans are coming from...

...oh it's a vicious cycle

 

[Temujin]

no more Republican vs Democrat debates - they degenerate in Republicans vs the World. And the World doesn;t undertsand where the Republicans are coming from...

...oh it's a vicious cycle

I always thought it was the other way around, at least in IR anyway.

 

[Foggy]

How about reality vs. real life - 65 million Americans supposedly voted on American Idol - who can debunk this first - btw I don't know any single person who voted?

 

[Temujin]

How about reality vs. real life - 65 million Americans supposedly voted on American Idol - who can debunk this first - btw I don't know any single person who voted?

My wife watchews that, who won?

 

[Martin Schenkel]

How about reality vs. real life - 65 million Americans supposedly voted on American Idol - who can debunk this first - btw I don't know any single person who voted?

Don't they charge 0.99$ per phone vote or something? Somebody's getting mighty rich off this

 

[jlbetin]

What I would like to pin point here, we are serious people. We are abble to manage serious debate.

German Aussies CanadoQuebecians USA folks, Humngarian , Poles and USAMzPole, Swedish, Finnish, French etc... we have different way of living traditions way of seeing life, I think it is a good place to discuss about our differences , I try it in a thread to speak about our lifes habbits etc.. I think along with hot debates this are good way to to know us better.

Do you agree Don ?

Don honestly you are upset with US bashing, what would have said when it was French bashing ?? one year ago?, I know you were on duty and hopefully you return back. But I was not fun for French people too.

In my own opinion don't mix Bush criticism and Anti US bashing. I've certain that most of who criticise GWB and Republican Administration have nothing against USA and US people. Same for you who criticise French Governement and Nasty Jacques Chirac (he is called here "Super Liar"), I'm sure you have Nothing against French People and France. Or against German people due to Schroeder policy.

As many french people, I will never forget that 60 years ago your grand father great uncle or other relatives of your family came here to make us free.

Don't forget too that after 9/11 all Nato member French included have use the paragraph 6 IIRW of North Atlantic Treaty to declare that US was under attack and all Nato members were ready to support it.

Concerning your post I was ready to make a thread asking if we were abble to debate without insults.

Debate between people of different opinion is great. I like debating but without insults or nasty comments. All opinion except Facist ones are respectable.

I had lot of discussion with Dan/Cheetah he is conservative Ok I'm a leftist ok. But we can argue in respect of each others. and I learned a lot about him.

I'm sure that you Don and I together can have honest discussion, if you want to have some.

Your comments Don

My Best friendly thoughts

Jean-Luc BETIN aka Der Wanderer

 

[jlbetin]

Oh, just one more thing, when I told in France bla bla bla. It is not to say France is better than any other country !!!!

I just want to told you what is going on in my country, to get answer about your way of living.

I always have pleasure to see how different or close we are.


Der WanderCurious

 

[hydrou]

Too true, in each debatte or discussion you should never loose the respect for your "enemy". And be reminded, what you say easily by posting, would you say the same thing to a person in RL, that stands before you? In some cases, I saw lately on the forum, I´m either not sure about that or some ppl just take some things too personal, when "their Holy Grail" is mentioned in a discussion.

 

[jlbetin]

Too true, in each debatte or discussion you should never loose the respect for your "enemy". And be reminded, what you say easily by posting, would you say the same thing to a person in RL, that stands before you? In some cases, I saw lately on the forum, I´m either not sure about that or some ppl just take some things too personal, when "their Holy Grail" is mentioned in a discussion.

No it is not an enemy, it is an opponent.

There are no ennemies in this club.

Der WanderKillThem AllThoseBl***Bas****Of Rep****** :dead:
Hum Don
what do you say
I'm out
please Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo :dead:

 

[LaPalice]

I have less time to post on the forum now, and for the most part I read it instead of writing. The main thing has changed on this forum in my opinion is the number of posts, which are largely more numerous than before. This forum is more "alive" now than before.

LaPalice.

 

[CPangracs]

I have less time to post on the forum now, and for the most part I read it instead of writing. The main thing has changed on this forum in my opinion is the number of posts, which are largely more numerous than before. This forum is more "alive" now than before.

LaPalice.

You're welcome.:devious:

 

[Tzar]

OK, let's take a break from these never-ending political issues

Go see that guys, wargamers like us can only be happy when you see such historical material still running:

http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7452

 

[Dr Zaius]

Gentlemen, I am not trying to stifle debate. That is not my intention nor should it be anyone else's. All I am saying is that I can't allow the Iraq issue to take over every aspect of the forums. If I allow that, then it will slowly squeeze out everything else until this forum becomes just another bitter troll breeding ground like many of the larger discussion forums on the internet and nearly all the usenet groups. This is a club gentlemen, and as such it has to have some degree of foucs and general rules.

There are things that I can do to make the use of the forum even more restrictive and closed to the general public. I see no reason to do this, however, because it isn't the guests that cause the problems, it us.
Here is an observation, again not meant to inspire further debate, just meant to give some additional perspective.

It's obvious that we have two basic groups that frequent this forum. These aren't really the correct terms as they are vast oversimplifications for what I'm talking about, but I think you will understand what I mean. These are liberals and conservatives. I'm not using these terms in the strict sense they are used in America, but in a much broader sense.

So why am I mentioning this? Well, there is one reason that some of you may not have considered. Liberals (and I meant this to include American liberals, Euro socialists, non-nationalists, etc) always preach "multiculturalism" and "tolerance" and one of their bedrock principles. People of this mind set tend to be generally accepting of most anything as long as they don't perceive it as a threat to themselves or their goals. People of this mindset tend to be very accepting of everyone else's ideas on this forum, even if they mostly disagree with them.

In contrast, the more conservative (for lack of a better term) members of this forum as far more prone to see thing in more absolute terms. This is probably the most fundamental difference between an American liberal and an American conservative. The conservative believes that there are definite right and wrong answers to many questions and not all ideas or ideologies are necessarily equal. In short, conservatives tend to appear as more agressive and more prone to say "no" than the average liberal. Liberals perceive this as being narrow minded while conservatives perceive liberals as having no beliefs worth standing up for.

These are broad generalizations, and I mention them only in the context of how I see these two competing mindsets operating on this forum every day. The European socialists and American liberals on this forum will generally tolerate any viewpoint, no matter how far fetched, because they truly have bought in to the idea of multicultural acceptance. The conservatives (and other similar groups) on this forum generally regard this as the worst type of moral relativism.

My whole point is that the conservatives here are far more likely to state their position in absolute terms and tell someone else they are wrong. Some perceive this as a personal attack and call for more tolerance and acceptance of their ideas, which of course alienates the conservatives even further. . . and so the cycle goes.

When posting here, just be aware that this is a club discussion board, not a usegroup that is open to anyone. Only registered members can post, and as such you are expected to show a degree of civility to other members, even if you strongly disagree with them. If you find this particular sub-forum is too hot to handle, then take a break and post in some of the other ones for a while. You may find that people who totally disagree with you on political issues, but nevertheless have very similar interests and expertise with wargames.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Don honestly you are upset with US bashing, what would have said when it was French bashing ?? one year ago?, I know you were on duty and hopefully you return back. But I was not fun for French people too.

And I appreciate that. We live in difficult times and there have been challenges for all of us. I guess my only reply is that Franch and German soldiers were not dying then, nor are they dying now. Americans are dying. This does tend to alter the backdrop of the debate a bit, yes?

If some of us Americans come off sounding a little harsh, I hope you can understand where the frustration is coming from. This particular debate isn't just another "issue" for us, it's a real live war where real people are being killed or maimed nearly every day.You have to take that into consideration when talk about some of these things. I have lost two frinds KIA in Iraq already. That changes the debate for me, that's why I having been staying out of it for the last week or so.

 

[Tzar]

So why am I mentioning this? Well, there is one reason that some of you may not have considered. Liberals (and I meant this to include American liberals, Euro socialists, non-nationalists, etc) always preach "multiculturalism" and "tolerance" and one of their bedrock principles. People of this mind set tend to be generally accepting of most anything as long as they don't perceive it as a threat to themselves or their goals. People of this mindset tend to be very accepting of everyone else's ideas on this forum, even if they mostly disagree with them.

In contrast, the more conservative (for lack of a better term) members of this forum as far more prone to see thing in more absolute terms. This is probably the most fundamental difference between an American liberal and an American conservative. The conservative believes that there are definite right and wrong answers to many questions and not all ideas or ideologies are necessarily equal. In short, conservatives tend to appear as more agressive and more prone to say "no" than the average liberal. Liberals perceive this as being narrow minded while conservatives perceive liberals as having no beliefs worth standing up for.

These are broad generalizations, and I mention them only in the context of how I see these two competing mindsets operating on this forum every day. The European socialists and American liberals on this forum will generally tolerate any viewpoint, no matter how far fetched, because they truly have bought in to the idea of multicultural acceptance. The conservatives (and other similar groups) on this forum generally regard this as the worst type of moral relativism.

My whole point is that the conservatives here are far more likely to state their position in absolute terms and tell someone else they are wrong. Some perceive this as a personal attack and call for more tolerance and acceptance of their ideas, which of course alienates the conservatives even further. . . and so the cycle goes.

In just a few lines, you have exactly much nail down the "philosophical differences" between the two approaches. These differences explain how people also react.

Liberals often are shocked at the way the conservatives will tell them to go to hell in no subtile ways (conservatives are usually trigger happy people in debates), while the conservatives get fed up when the liberals keep coming back to absolutely try to convince them of their viewpoints and opinions (a natural tendency among liberals).

As long as both sides understand this and restrain themselves to behave in a polite fashion, there is no problem with debate.

 

[Dicke Bertha]

Don, I think this is a great place, you are the boss, but I think you are making a mistake here. I agree with your description of the situation, but think you may be somewhat oversensitive here. This is not the remedy. I think bans on subjects political will indeed make this place less interesting. After all we all know each other here reasonably well, and mostly everone appreciates a civil discussion with people of another (even fundamentally other) opinion or view. It would be be better to keep a closer language and civility control while some topics are hot. I have crossed the line on some occasions and I am sorry, but I truly believe it is also onto everyone of us to go in and say "Gentlemen be gentlemen" or "Stop there and kindly, explain that!" when things escalate. I will try to better.