Rules learned/relearned at ASLOK XX

[Paul S NJ]

-Bombardments can leave shellholes in jungle, which nullify jungle terrain
-During rally, for their one rally phase activity, you can ‘freely’ (ie as much/many as desired) transfer sw between units
-WP shots into huts cause automatic kindling rolls, regardless of EC. With a kindling of 6 I think this requires an SSR for A117 (and maybe some other scenarios) that throwing/firing WP into hexes empty of enemy units is prohibited.
-TEM does apply to vehicles being hit by indirect fire (not just their vulnerable PRC), expect that airbursts are NA to BU CT afv.
-To convert an SR to FFE, you MUST have a LOS to a known enemy unit, or LOS to a ground level location. This is more restrictive than the ‘draw the 2nd black card’ needed to place the SR.
-When you pivot vca, you lose any HD on a hill
-Afvs in cellars can have crew survival
-DC can’t clear mines at all, even with a KIA. Only OBA can clear mines
-The 37L gun heat to kill is the same as a PF (shudder)
-Range (-1/-2) does apply to DI shots
-A tossed dc does not affect friendly (or non-moving units) in the target location
-Can’t toss a dc in your own location, even vs a vehicle, despite the above
-Per the rulebook, neither a PTC, nor a 4KIA, will strip the ? from a non-dummy BU CT AFV (although the rulebook and ? loss table appear to disagree on this)
-Armor leaders do not exist for CVP/EVP/MC purposes unless inside an AFV
-Unless something’s changed in the recent discussion about armored assault (which I haven’t been following) you can’t armored assault into a building with troops while the afv goes into bypass of the same hex.
-When a ? leader with an un-? Squad are attacked in CC, the leader must first declare whether its will either drop ? and defend with the squad, or keep ? (forfeiting its CC attack) and defend separately. The attacker must then declare whether the ? leader will be attacked together with the squad or not. If both ? and unconcealed unit(s) are attacked together, then the entire cc attack value is halved

Paul

 

[jrv]

Hi,

- A SMC entering a friendly unit's Location does NOT force TPBF. Only a MMC does.

So long,
JR

 

[Chas Argent]

-You can't "step out" in anything but a ground-level location to avoid the Backblast Desperation penalty...makes perfect sense in hindsight but I'd never caught that one before.

 

[Brian W]

If you don't go, you can't play

 

[Corporal Kindel]

-During rally, for their one rally phase activity, you can ‘freely’ (ie as much/many as desired) transfer sw between units

As long as each unit does no more than one action per RPh, A3.1. Personally I always thought being rallied counted as an “action†and recovery as another “action†for two “actions†but I’m not 100% on that.

-When you pivot vca, you lose any HD on a hill

Also If you pivot VCA in a building/woods you have to risk a bog/cellar roll, as I found out a year or so ago. That stuck in my mind for some reason ever since.

-The 37L gun heat to kill is the same as a PF (shudder)

I’ve always wondered what weapon uses the “47†column on the PSK/37/47 column of the HEAT TK table? Sent a Q/A to MMP a year ago, with this as one of the questions, and never got an answer.

-A tossed dc does not affect friendly (or non-moving units) in the target location

Are you referring specifically to a first fire situation? In which case non-moving units would never be affected (the only exception I’m aware of is air attacks). If it’s a thrown DC into a melee (DC players Mph), for example, then I don’t think that’s right, and I’d need a rules quote on that one.

-Per the rulebook, neither a PTC, nor a 4KIA, will strip the ? from a non-dummy BU CT AFV (although the rulebook and ? loss table appear to disagree on this)

This is interesting, I always thought a PTC result (at least a PTC result) auto-strips concealment. Which rules, if you remember, drew you to that conclusion?

-Unless something’s changed in the recent discussion about armored assault (which I haven’t been following) you can’t armored assault into a building with troops while the afv goes into bypass

Actually there was a big discussion on this exact same thing a couple of days ago, and I thought exactly as you did on this point, however I was proven wrong. In fact someone had a Perry-quote that said AA infantry could remain AA while moving INTO a building while the AFV moved in bypass. I’ll try and find the link ...

found it, check out post #8 on this thread:
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33028

 

[Chas Argent]

Also If you pivot VCA in a building/woods you have to risk a bog/cellar roll, as I found out a year or so ago. That stuck in my mind for some reason ever since.

B23.41 only mentions entry of a building by an AFV as having a potential risk of falling into the cellar, not changing VCA; am I missing some other rule?

 

[Corporal Kindel]

B23.41 only mentions entry of a building by an AFV as having a potential risk of falling into the cellar, not changing VCA; am I missing some other rule?

C5.11 "... a change of VCA in woods/bldg/rubble requires passage of a bog check first ..." and a bog check can result in celler/rubble creation.

Why this is in section C is anyone's guess?

 

[ross]

As long as each unit does no more than one action per RPh, A3.1. Personally I always thought being rallied counted as an “action†and recovery as another “action†for two “actions†but I’m not 100% on that.

Actually, per ASOP, recovery attempts (step 1.14B) must precede any rally attempts (step 1.23B); additionally, SW transfers (step 1.22B) also precede rally attempts. This means, of course, that a broken unit cannot first recover/transfer a SW, then get rallied in the same RPh.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

Actually, per ASOP, recovery attempts (step 1.14B) must precede any rally attempts (step 1.23B); additionally, SW transfers (step 1.22B) also precede rally attempts.

Yeah, but it's not a question of precedence, it's a question of whether or not a unit may attempt more than one "action" per phase, and A3.1 specifies a unit may perform *no more* than one "action" per phase. I presume rallying (via leader assist or first self-rally), weapon recovery, and sw transfer are each seperate "actions" no?

I think the '47' refers to the following (French) Gun:

6. Canon Antichar de 47 SA mle 37 APX

Type: AT
CSize: 47L
ROF (IFE): 3
B#: (11)
Range: 162
M#: 10
TSize: +1
Dates: 1939 - 5/1943

Special: NT, QSU, APCR only

BPV: 28 RF:
Notes: B, G, P, V

�* This Gun fires only APCR.

Does anyone know of any scenario that features this ATG?

Thanks, good to know that, now I know which gun it is. Now, how in the hell did the French develop a 47 HEAT round for this 47 which was as good as a PF? Or was this simply a German conversion-round for these captured French Guns, at which point German HEAT availability date is used? (May '42 IIRC).

That's a good question, which scenario? I know for a fact I've never seen a 47 HEAT shot in my 20 years, or thereabouts, of ASL play.

 

[Chas Argent]

C5.11 ... a change of VCA in woods/bldg/rubble requires passage of a bog check first ..."

But does that mean the vehicle can fall into the cellar by changing VCA? Or only Bog by changing VCA?

Why this is in section C is anyone's guess?

Yes, that is odd if true.

 

[Jazz]

A question that didn't get answered....

So, playing one of the new Swedish scenarios vs Neil Stanhaggen, this question came up....

Is an in motion AFV in bypass of a building enough to deny building control?

My building, I put tanks into the hex in VBM in motion. Does this keep the other guy from gaining control of the building with an MMC?

We played that it did, but he came back next day and claimed it wouldn't. We didn't really have time to sit down with the rulebook and hash it out and Perry wasn't there yet.....

If it's not, my record goes to 9-7.....

 

[ross]

Yeah, but it's not a question of precedence, it's a question of whether or not a unit may attempt more than one "action" per phase, and A3.1 specifies a unit may perform *no more* than one "action" per phase. I presume rallying (via leader assist or first self-rally), weapon recovery, and sw transfer are each seperate "actions" no?

Correct, a broken unit can only attempt rally as it's one action in the RPh; do keep in mind that a good-order SMC can steal a broken unit's SW away during the RPh (per A4.44). Of course, such a SMC cannot be the same SMC leader that is attempting to also rally the same broken unit as that would count as two actions.

Thanks, good to know that, now I know which gun it is. Now, how in the hell did the French develop a 47 HEAT round for this 47 which was as good as a PF? Or was this simply a German conversion-round for these captured French Guns, at which point German HEAT availability date is used? (May '42 IIRC).

My bad, I read APCR, when you asked about HEAT. This is why I edited my earlier post to drop my incorrect answer. A quick, cursory look at Chapter H reveals nothing so far to conclude the source of the mystery 47 HEAT round. Sorry for the confusion; I gotta always remember to read twice before posting.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

But does that mean the vehicle can fall into the cellar by changing VCA? Or only Bog by changing VCA?

Yes, that is odd if true.

C5.11 references D8.2 which says "A vehicle must make a *Bog check* .... or making any VCA change ..." and B23.41 (on page B24) says " .... If the AFV rolls an origingal 6 on the colored dr of the *Bog check* DR ... has fallen through the floor ..."

I take that to mean VCA changes trigger Bog check DR which can cause rubble/celler/bog/mire. Entering a building is another case that can trigger Bog check DR which can cause Bog/rubble/cellar ...

 

[Chas Argent]

...and B23.41 (on page B24) says " .... If the AFV rolls an origingal 6 on the colored dr of the Bog check DR ... has fallen through the floor ..."

I take that to mean VCA changes trigger BOG DR which can cause rubble/celler/bog/mire.

Well, it says "the Bog check DR" (my emphasis) referring to the entry DR. It seems odd to me that it wouldn't mention both entry and VCA change if the potential to fall in the cellar didn't exist for both.

 

[Larry]

Sorry Jazz

A26.11 A non-bypassing armed vehicle (or armed PRC) prevents the opponent from gaining Control of the Locationlhexlbuilding it occupies

 

[Corporal Kindel]

Well, it says "the Bog check DR" (my emphasis) referring to the entry DR. It seems odd to me that it wouldn't mention both entry and VCA change if the potential to fall in the cellar didn't exist for both.

That's a good point though. It's probably worthwhile to start a thread on this, just to see what others have to say too. After all, setting AFVs up in buildings at scenario start is fairly commonplace, and I'd like to know 100% if the inevitable VCA change can cause celler result.

 

[Larry]

The falling into the cellar rule has context. That context is that the non-VBM entry into the building location causes the Bog roll with the rubble and cellar possibilities.

Such non-VBM entry of a building hex requires an immediate Bog Check DR with a +3 DRM to the Bog Check only (+4 for stone buildings). If the AFV rolls <= 0 on the colored dr of the Bog Check DR, the building hex has been rubbled. A -1 drm to the colored dr of the Bog Check DR applies if the building is wooden/a Single Story House (per each applicable case) only for purposes of determining rubble creation. Rubbling a Single Story House has no effect upon any occupants of the building, but if a rubbled building has an upper level, 24.11-.121 applies. If the AFV rolls an Original 6 on the colored dr of the Bog Check DR, the AFV has fallen through the floor to the cellar and is removed.

Pivoting of the VCA is not a "non-VBM entry of a huilding hex" and therefore cannot cause either of the non-Bog consequences.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

O.k I can see that, can cause bog but not cellar/rubble, sounds good to me.

 

[KevinG]

That it is the 'Basic' TK# of a weapon that determines whether or not it can be used for DI or not. Both Matt Ozvat (sucessfully - already given hima hard time about this) and Steve Pleva (not sucessfully) tried to DI a Panther of mine (hull 6) with a Russian ATR within 6 hexes as the ATR TK goes up to 7 at that point. We checked on the way home and range effects are not part of the Basic TK number so this shouldnt have been allowed.

The ? stripping that Paul mentions earlier came up when Steve and i were playing. Paul and both thought that a PTC from infantry fire would be good enough, but the rules suggested otherwise. We didnt look at the ? gain/loss chart at this time.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

That it is the 'Basic' TK# of a weapon that determines whether or not it can be used for DI or not. Both Matt Ozvat (sucessfully - already given hima hard time about this) and Steve Pleva (not sucessfully) tried to DI a Panther of mine (hull 6) with a Russian ATR within 6 hexes as the ATR TK goes up to 7 at that point. We checked on the way home and range effects are not part of the Basic TK number so this shouldnt have been allowed..

Seen people do this many times watching in on VASL games, basic TK does not add range effects on penetration. New players, especially, would be wise to keep this in mind. Inevitably, someone will try and pull this over on you at least once in everyone's ASL-life.

The ? stripping that Paul mentions earlier came up when Steve and i were playing. Paul and both thought that a PTC from infantry fire would be good enough, but the rules suggested otherwise. We didnt look at the ? gain/loss chart at this time.

Which rule suggested otherwise?