Rowhouse black bar question -- blocking LOS parallel to hexside?

Patch_Bunny

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How much on an obstacle is the rowhouse black bar on LOS when the LOS crosses along the rowhouse hexside?

Can M15h2 see L16? L15 is a 1.5 obstacle, so the LOS should otherwise be clear. But does the bar block LOS when the LOS is above the roof?

View attachment 53345

If M15 is rubbled at ground level, can L14h2 see N14?

View attachment 53346
 

von Marwitz

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1st question:

In any case, the black bar would rise higher than 1.5 levels because of the stairwell symbol of the adjacent hex M16. So no LOS.


2nd question:

"B23.71 ROWHOUSE: Any multihex building with a thick black bar over any hexside it crosses (such as 23K7) is considered a Rowhouse structure composed of separate Rowhouses. As a multihex building, Rowhouses have an upper level(s) and are considered either 1½ level obstacles to LOS if they have only an inherent stairwell (23.22) such as 20X6, or 2½ level obstacles if they have a printed stairwell (23.23) such as 12O4. The thick black bar blocks all LOS through it at all levels [EXC: Rowhouse rooftop units retain their normal LOS]. Rubble has no effect on this black bar unless both hexes formed by that hexside are rubbled, in which case it ceases to exist. Infantry in a Rowhouse may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC directly into another Rowhouse hex of the same building only at the ground or Rooftop (23.8) level; if at the ground level they must specify which side of the building they are "bypassing". Such units moving/routing on the ground level expend three MF (one to "bypass" in the hex it is leaving where it would be attacked by any OBA/Residual-FP and two to enter the building), and can be Interdicted or Defensive First Fired upon with FFMO/FFNAM DRM by any unit capable of doing so that can trace a LOS to the vertex of the hexside crossed by the moving/routing unit on that side of the building. If broken, pinned, or repulsed at this vertex, the unit is returned to its last-occupied Location as if it had attempted to enter a concealed MMC's Location during its MPh (A12.15). A ground-level move/rout/advance/Withdrawal of this type is vulnerable to any mines in either hex. Units in different Rowhouses may not form a FG unless each is ADJACENT to another unit that is not in a Rowhouse but that is part of that FG. Each hex of a Rowhouse building is always considered a separate building for Rout and Mopping Up purposes but not for Building Control."

So in your case, LOS is blocked by the black bar.

von Marwitz
 
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jrv

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How much on an obstacle is the rowhouse black bar on LOS when the LOS crosses along the rowhouse hexside?

Can M15h2 see L16? L15 is a 1.5 obstacle, so the LOS should otherwise be clear. But does the bar block LOS when the LOS is above the roof?

View attachment 53345

If M15 is rubbled at ground level, can L14h2 see N14?

View attachment 53346
The rowhouse black bar is part of the building. I think you are saying that building in M15 is level 1.5 and M16 is level 2.5 (I have not dug out the FB rules). If so, the building depiction in L15 is 1.5 levels tall and in M16 it is 2.5 levels tall. Because a building is not inherent terrain, you would have to see the (level 2.5) building depiction on both sides of the thread, which obviously you can't. Likewise with the rubble, the building no longer exists in the M15 hex, so it can't be on the other side of a LOS traced down the hexside. LOS is clear in both cases.

edit: "through" here means from one side of the hexside to the other, not along the hexside. A unit still can't see from M14 to M15 in the rubble case.

JR
 
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von Marwitz

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The rowhouse black bar is part of the building. I think you are saying that building in M15 is level 1.5 and M16 is level 2.5 (I have not dug out the FB rules). If so, the building depiction in L15 is 1.5 levels tall and in M16 it is 2.5 levels tall. Because a building is not inherent terrain, you would have to see the (level 2.5) building depiction on both sides of the thread, which obviously you can't. Likewise with the rubble, the building no longer exists in the M15 hex, so it can't be on the other side of a LOS traced down the hexside. LOS is clear in both cases.

edit: "through" here means from one side of the hexside to the other, not along the hexside. A unit still can't see from M14 to M15 in the rubble case.

JR
With regard to the first question:
The question is, if the height of the black bar can be "split".

Is there only "one" black bar, the height of which is determined by the higher rowhouse it borders?
Or are there "two halves" of a rowhouse black bar, the height of which is each determined by the height of the rowhouse locations in their respective hex?

Depending on how this is regarded, it will affect if LOS exists or not. In fact, looking at the rules, I can't find anything that indicates one way or the other. Interesting...

von Marwitz
 

Patch_Bunny

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Hoping for a tiebreaker vote, here. It'll tell me where I need to advance in a BPeM game.
 

JOS

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I wish that the example with rubble be interpreted and treated as blocked. Both arguments above are compelling enough to suggest the rules are vague (although perhaps a comment on the 'over' in the first sentence of B23.71 is warranted). Treating the LOS as blocked gives an 'auto-blocked' multi-level hexside-LOS counterpart to the multi-level 'auto-clear' represented by cliff hexsides, increasing diversity in terrain-LOS interactions within ASL.

Enjoy, Joshua
 

Eagle4ty

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In the first case I agree with von Marwitz as there is no "splitting the height difference" of the black bars (unless by SSR) and thus it would exist at throughout level 2 1/2 ,the highest level (though a case could be made for the opposite), thus preventing LOS to Lvl1 in L16. Personally, I would go for a blocked LOS from M15 to L16 as rubble that I have encountered seldom fell off sharply at the juncture of a standing building and the rubbled part (JMHO though and hey, lets give the defender a break just this once).

In the second instance, regardless of the Black bar height, the Russian unit in N14 is out of LOS as the hex would be a blind hex because the black bar would not be eliminated unless hex M14 was also rubbled.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Hoping for a tiebreaker vote, here. It'll tell me where I need to advance in a BPeM game.
I'm with jrv on this one - the first LOS is clear as any building obstacle (be it the black bar or otherwise) is not visible on both sides on any LOS string.
 

Eagle4ty

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I'm with jrv on this one - the first LOS is clear as any building obstacle (be it the black bar or otherwise) is not visible on both sides on any LOS string.
Perhaps you're correct with the current literal reading of the rules, but the intent of the rule was to use a black bar to denote a separation within the building (think this came out in COD or GI-AoV where the original Bd12 row-house buildings were not annotated with a black bar, but treated as such and spelled out in the rules to add such if it helped the player visualize the row-house effect. If the bars are not part of the building depiction, what are they? In as much as the bars cannot be destroyed unless both hexes forming the hexside are rubbled, the portion of the building containing the black bar certainly still exists along the LOS (running as it does exactly down the hex-side and visible on either side). On this one I will stick by my assertion and respectfully disagree with you. I don't see how you could draw a LOS from M15 to L16 or visa versa without going exactly down the hexside of L15/M16 (clearly covered by a black bar that extends into each hex).
 

klasmalmstrom

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I agree that the black bar is part of the building depiction, it is just that I believe it exists at different heights in the different hexes - just as "normal" building depiction does with it comes to split-level buildings.
 

Patch_Bunny

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I agree that the black bar is part of the building depiction, it is just that I believe it exists at different heights in the different hexes - just as "normal" building depiction does with it comes to split-level buildings.
Which is an interesting point. Can a unit in M16h2 move to L15roof?
 
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