Row houses stuff

nathan brown

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A inf unit attempts to bump scouts around the corner of a row house against ? Inf.

Is DFF PBF possible on vertex before the return bounce.

What if there is smoke in next door to building hex that 'touches' the bypassed vertex but is not in either building hex - does it modify or is the moving unit in the 'non smoke bit of the b uilding hex'

Presumably the DFF would leave residual that also affects units trying to go round the other side of the rowhouse bar?. Ie sneaky DC attempt.

Thanks as always
 

klasmalmstrom

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A inf unit attempts to bump scouts around the corner of a row house against ? Inf.

Is DFF PBF possible on vertex before the return bounce.
I don't think so - i.e., the unit is bounced back into the rowhouse obstacle is came from.

B23.71:
"...If broken, pinned, or repulsed at this vertex, the unit is returned to its last-occupied Location as if it had attempted to enter a concealed MMC’s Location during its MPh (A12.15)...."


What if there is smoke in next door to building hex that 'touches' the bypassed vertex but is not in either building hex - does it modify or is the moving unit in the 'non smoke bit of the b uilding hex'
The moving unit is not in a SMOKE Location, so any LOS that doesn't go through the SMOKE hex is unaffected by it.


Presumably the DFF would leave residual that also affects units trying to go round the other side of the rowhouse bar?. Ie sneaky DC attempt.
DFF vs the MF spent in "bypass" at the vertex would leave Residual FP in the hex the unit is attempting the leave, and that Residual FP will attack the unit as it is bounced back into the building it was attempting to leave, per A12.15:
"...such re-entry causes any already-existing Residual FP in the returned-to Location to attack the returning unit..."
 

Eagle4ty

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I think it would be possible because the MF expended is not part of a combined movement per se (I.e. it's 1MF for the vertex, then 2MF to enter the building-similar to entering/exiting a Foxhole) and not like 2MF to enter a woods/building. The Q&A simply addresses the situation where an Infantry unit may not be left in bypass. I would certainly think this would be a good candidate for a question to Perry.
 

buser333

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I think it would be possible because the MF expended is not part of a combined movement per se (I.e. it's 1MF for the vertex, then 2MF to enter the building-similar to entering/exiting a Foxhole) and not like 2MF to enter a woods/building. The Q&A simply addresses the situation where an Infantry unit may not be left in bypass. I would certainly think this would be a good candidate for a question to Perry.
I tend to agree with this, but then the question arises what if the enemy unit was entering a concealed unit's hex who is in a foxhole, etc.
 

Eagle4ty

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I tend to agree with this, but then the question arises what if the enemy unit was entering a concealed unit's hex who is in a foxhole, etc.
Reading B23.71 further it seems as if the moving unit is considered bypassing within the hex it is leaving but LOS/LOF is traced to the vertex of the two hexes, further reinforcing my contention that Def. Fire vs the unit from the target/destination hex would be PBF. If all other rules regarding RFP are followed as well, any RFP would also be placed in the hex it attempted to leave (just like any other shot at a Bypassing unit-weird ASL physics to be sure, but not the craziest).

Re: your query. Since the Foxhole is the same Location as the hex it would be entering the unit would be "bumped" back as it attempted to enter the hex prior to attempting to enter the Foxhole [EXC: Berserk, HW, and a few other special cases].
 
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Vinnie

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I tend to agree with this, but then the question arises what if the enemy unit was entering a concealed unit's hex who is in a foxhole, etc.
In that case the two months expenditures are separate but doesn't in the same location. You get bumped by the first one as you enter the hex so cannot spend the next to g in the FH.
 

nathan brown

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So can I just clarify. Please and thanks. Can the defensive unit being moved into/bump scouted around the rowhouse fire (pbf) at the moving unit or does the bumper return first then it cannot be seen?

Appreciate it might be different for other units that can see the vertex?
 

Philippe D.

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You spend one MF in bypass in the exterior vertex, where you can be fired at (considered in the original hex for range purposes), then 2 MF to try to enter the second hex - and this is when you are repulsed, and actually spend your 2MF in your own building, I believe. So for units on the other side of the rowhouse bar, only the bypassing part would give a First Fire opportunity.
 

Binchois

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Definitely agree with Philippe and Eagle4ty here as B23.71 states explicitly that moving across the rowhouse bar is, essentially, two separate expenditures:

Such units moving/routing on the ground level expend three MF (one to "bypass" in the hex it is leaving where it would be attacked by any OBA/Residual-FP and two to enter the building), and can be Interdicted or Defensive First Fired upon with FFMO/FFNAM DRM by any unit capable of doing so that can trace a LOS to the vertex of the hexside crossed by the moving/routing unit on that side of the building.​

As for the PBF question, any fire from a hex that includes the bypass vertex would be PBF (barring extreme height-differentials or unless from the hex being exited: TPBF). This last piece is true because the exiting unit is assumed to still be in the exited hex during MF #1 (as stated in 23.71).

Where I am slightly uncertain is what happens to the repulsed bypass immediately as per A12.15?

A12.15 Whenever a non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh [EXC: Bypass (12.151); Human Wave (25.23)], the DEFENDER must immediately reveal at least one concealed unit in that Location and thereby force the moving unit back (even from a Wire Location) to the last Location occupied before entering his Location [EXC: units allowed to enter an enemy Location during the MPh; 4.14] where it will lose Concealment and end its MPh (unless it goes Berserk first) and is subject to possible Defensive First Fire attack (or, in the case of a routing unit, eliminated or captured for Failure to Rout; 10.533).
I assume that the unit is immediately placed back inside the rowhouse. The same problem would occur if a unit in bypass of one obstacle gets bounced while attempting to enter a concealed unit's location in an adjacent hex. Is that unit first bounced back into bypass or is he bounced directly into to obstacle he was bypassing?

Again, I assume the answer is immediately placed inside the obstacle as the moving unit must halt its MPh.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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...The same problem would occur if a unit in bypass of one obstacle gets bounced while attempting to enter a concealed unit's location in an adjacent hex. Is that unit first bounced back into bypass or is he bounced directly into to obstacle he was bypassing?
Have you forgotten your own Q&A? :)
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/re-a12-15-unit-forced-back-into-building-hex-it-was-bypassing.127584/

Such a "bounced" unit spends those MF "in bypass".

But note that a unit moving from rowhouse to rowhouse is not really bypassing though - hence the "" around "bypass" in the rule.
 

Binchois

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Have you forgotten your own Q&A? :)
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/re-a12-15-unit-forced-back-into-building-hex-it-was-bypassing.127584/

Such a "bounced" unit spends those MF "in bypass".

But note that a unit moving from rowhouse to rowhouse is not really bypassing though - hence the "" around "bypass" in the rule.
Ha!!! So ridiculous...:facepalm:
Which brings me to my latest ASL woe: Since returning to the game, I have come to realize that keeping track of Errata, Q&As, debated issues, plus my (growing larger) collection of "things-I-keep-forgetting" or "know-I-will-probably-get-wrong-again-the-next-time" is a complicated process. Thanks for what you do to help us, though I should probably start another thread to see if others have tips on the matter!

EDIT: ...I just did!
 
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Eagle4ty

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Have you forgotten your own Q&A? :)
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/re-a12-15-unit-forced-back-into-building-hex-it-was-bypassing.127584/

Such a "bounced" unit spends those MF "in bypass".

But note that a unit moving from rowhouse to rowhouse is not really bypassing though - hence the "" around "bypass" in the rule.
Not sure exactly what you're intimating with the "around "bypass" as the word "Bypass" or "bypassing" is used several times in B23.71 without any additional qualifiers. To say that "around "bypass" is different than bypass in this specific instance would be spurious at best as the same mechanics are being used to circumvent an obstacle to their movement and there is no other rule to delineate an "around bypass" as being anything different. As to where the unit is at a certain juncture, A4.32-.34 pretty well points that out as does the mechanics of Bypass movement.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Not sure exactly what you're intimating with the "around "bypass" as the word "Bypass" or "bypassing" is used several times in B23.71 without any additional qualifiers. To say that "around "bypass" is different than bypass in this specific instance would be spurious at best as the same mechanics are being used to circumvent an obstacle to their movement and there is no other rule to delineate an "around bypass" as being anything different. As to where the unit is at a certain juncture, A4.32-.34 pretty well points that out as does the mechanics of Bypass movement.
I meant that there are quotes around the word bypass - "bypass" - sorry if that wasn't clear. :)


Rowhouse "bypass" isn't normal bypass. E.g., in the ASL Journal 11 we have this Tips From The Trenches:

Wire can’t go into buildings (B26.1), but a road between buildings has always been a great place for it, hampering movement for both infantry and vehicles. The Wire also prevents non-vehicular bypass and hampers VBM (B26.44) along the shared hexside of the building hex. But the Wire cannot prevent bypass along hexsides on the opposite side of the building from the Wire, nor can it prevent “bypass” from one rowhouse hex to another (B23.71) through a vertex shared with the Wire hex. And don’t try to Double Time when attempting to move beneath Wire (B26.46); we always seem to forget that (until our opponent reminds us).

If it were normal bypass, then the red part would not be true.
 

Eagle4ty

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I meant that there are quotes around the word bypass - "bypass" - sorry if that wasn't clear. :)


Rowhouse "bypass" isn't normal bypass. E.g., in the ASL Journal 11 we have this Tips From The Trenches:

Wire can’t go into buildings (B26.1), but a road between buildings has always been a great place for it, hampering movement for both infantry and vehicles. The Wire also prevents non-vehicular bypass and hampers VBM (B26.44) along the shared hexside of the building hex. But the Wire cannot prevent bypass along hexsides on the opposite side of the building from the Wire, nor can it prevent “bypass” from one rowhouse hex to another (B23.71) through a vertex shared with the Wire hex. And don’t try to Double Time when attempting to move beneath Wire (B26.46); we always seem to forget that (until our opponent reminds us).

If it were normal bypass, then the red part would not be true.
A good catch but it doesn't mean that apples aren't fruit. However, it does present us with a sort of conundrum that if it this is not considered "bypass" movement, what type of movement is it considered? If a unit outside the intended destination would have a shot at the "bypassing" unit at the vertex of the Rowhouse bar unencumbered by the Rowhouse TEM he is leaving, how could an ADJACENT unit unit be subject to a lesser degree shot? Seems as if words are getting in the way of applicability.:)
 
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