Routing adjacent/ADJACENT to enemy unit.

Stewart

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
2,348
Reaction score
329
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
Given this rout situation;
18951

The carrier is in bypass in V1 at the V1,W2, V2 vertex.
French must rout.
Terrain of V1 is woods and LOS from the vertex in question is OoLOS to U1.

Can the unit rout to U1? or V0 for that matter? LOS doesn't exist from the Carrier to those locations.

IF the Blue unit STARTED in U1 and was Broken, would it have to rout?

Somewhat related, If an OT/CE enemy vehicle were in Bypass of the V1 hex but out of LOS of the Carrier, would it be restricted by TPBF rules?
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,662
Reaction score
3,488
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Given this rout situation;
View attachment 18951

The carrier is in bypass in V1 at the V1,W2, V2 vertex.
French must rout.
Terrain of V1 is woods and LOS from the vertex in question is OoLOS to U1.

Can the unit rout to U1? or V0 for that matter? LOS doesn't exist from the Carrier to those locations.
Yes it is not ADJACENT to the carrier nor would it be ADJACENT to an armed unbroken enemy unit if it routed to U1.
IF the Blue unit STARTED in U1 and was Broken, would it have to rout?
No it could remain in U1.
Somewhat related, If an OT/CE enemy vehicle were in Bypass of the V1 hex but out of LOS of the Carrier, would it be restricted by TPBF rules?
No. (A7.21-7.212 & D2.6).
 

SSlunt

Member
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
324
Reaction score
90
Location
Calgary AB
Country
llCanada
From the Perry Sez
A6.8
There are three examples at the end of A6.8. Are these examples of units that are not ADJACENT? The last item in the definition
of ADJACENT in the index refers to these examples [NA Examples: A6.8]
A. Correct. LOS is required to be ADJACENT

I think that it is a little odd that a Broken unit can lose a LOS to a unit but can still not route towards him, yet he knows that he was in the location with the AFV and is still "adjacent"

Why would a unit have to pass a PAATC to advance into a hex with a bypassed AFV out of LOS from the hex he advanced from and then Attack the AFV in CC?

We play with the rules we have.
 

semenza

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
807
Reaction score
227
Location
Poplar Ridge , NY
Country
llUnited States
Why would a unit have to pass a PAATC to advance into a hex with a bypassed AFV out of LOS from the hex he advanced from and then Attack the AFV in CC?

We play with the rules we have.
Because neither LOS or ADJACENT is part of the requirement to make a PAATC. Unit just needs to be attempting to enter the location. A11.6 That is a change from first edition. It used to say "Known AFV" it now says "unconcealed enemy AFV"


Seth
 

Stewart

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
2,348
Reaction score
329
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
From the Perry Sez
A6.8
There are three examples at the end of A6.8. Are these examples of units that are not ADJACENT? The last item in the definition
of ADJACENT in the index refers to these examples [NA Examples: A6.8]
A. Correct. LOS is required to be ADJACENT

I think that it is a little odd that a Broken unit can lose a LOS to a unit but can still not route towards him, yet he knows that he was in the location with the AFV and is still "adjacent"
He's not routing towards the enemy unit in the example and he's out of LOS of the unit Far safer than normal routs where you remain in the LOS of enemy units.
 
Last edited:

Stewart

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
2,348
Reaction score
329
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
Because neither LOS or ADJACENT is part of the requirement to make a PAATC. Unit just needs to be attempting to enter the location. A11.6 That is a change from first edition. It used to say "Known AFV" it now says "unconcealed enemy AFV"


Seth
Interesting that they made that change...It makes sense otherwise you just move into the hex.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,662
Reaction score
3,488
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Interesting that they made that change...It makes sense otherwise you just move into the hex.
I think it was more of a game mechanic to prevent advances into AFVs locations that would become easier if one didn't have a LOS to a KEU AFV in that Location. I don't necessarily agree with the change as I feel it made a vehicle in bypass even more of a threat, but there we have it. If I had to take a SWAG I would guess it was in response to the you-go, I-go nature of the game.:unsure::geek:
 

c600g

Member
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
141
Reaction score
92
Location
Oceanside, CA
Country
llUnited States
One thing to note is that A.8 defines ADJACENT in terms of Locations (and by extension, the units in these Locations). A vehicle being in bypass at a given vertex is NOT a new Location - it's Location in this example is still V1. V1 and V0 are both ADJACENT, and thus when the broken unit routs from V1 to V0, the broken unit in Location V0 is still ADJACENT to the vehicle in V1.

However, the broken unit in V0 no longer has LOS to the vehicle in V1, and thus the vehicle is not a KEU at that point. Hence, per 10.5 ("... nor — regardless of terrain — may it end a RtPh ADJACENT to or in the same Location with a Known enemy unit that is both unbroken and armed"), it can stay there.

At least, that is my reasoning...

Alan
 

Stewart

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
2,348
Reaction score
329
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
One thing to note is that A.8 defines ADJACENT in terms of Locations (and by extension, the units in these Locations). A vehicle being in bypass at a given vertex is NOT a new Location - it's Location in this example is still V1. V1 and V0 are both ADJACENT, and thus when the broken unit routs from V1 to V0, the broken unit in Location V0 is still ADJACENT to the vehicle in V1.

However, the broken unit in V0 no longer has LOS to the vehicle in V1, and thus the vehicle is not a KEU at that point. Hence, per 10.5 ("... nor — regardless of terrain — may it end a RtPh ADJACENT to or in the same Location with a Known enemy unit that is both unbroken and armed"), it can stay there.

At least, that is my reasoning...

Alan
It does specify, Los to locations [and units therein],. In this case, the los to the units is not had, the my initial reasons.
VBM adds a whole new level of application of LOS.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,662
Reaction score
3,488
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
One thing to note is that A.8 defines ADJACENT in terms of Locations (and by extension, the units in these Locations). A vehicle being in bypass at a given vertex is NOT a new Location - it's Location in this example is still V1. V1 and V0 are both ADJACENT, and thus when the broken unit routs from V1 to V0, the broken unit in Location V0 is still ADJACENT to the vehicle in V1.

However, the broken unit in V0 no longer has LOS to the vehicle in V1, and thus the vehicle is not a KEU at that point. Hence, per 10.5 ("... nor — regardless of terrain — may it end a RtPh ADJACENT to or in the same Location with a Known enemy unit that is both unbroken and armed"), it can stay there.

At least, that is my reasoning...

Alan
It is not ADJACENT to the Bypass vehicle in either U1 or V0 as there is no LOS from the vehicle in bypass to either hex. From the INDEX: ADJACENT (Locations [and units in them] are considered adjacent IF any Infantry Unit in one Location could conceivably -- ignoring any enemy presence -- advance into the other during the APh and a LOS exists between the two Locations, excluding SMOKE Hindrance [B.10] and NVR [E1.101] as factors): A.8 [Building hexes: B23.25] [Caves: G11.6] [dm Cause: A10.62] [NA Examples: A6.8].

Also from describing effects of vehicles in Bypass: D2.37 LOS: Fire to/from a vehicle in Bypass alters the LOS rules somewhat because of the need to trace fire to/from the CAFP instead of the hex center. The obstacle depiction in the firer/target hex can actually block LOS to/from outside the hex (or within the hex in the rare case of enemy vehicles in Bypass on different hexsides of the same hex) if it is crossed before reaching the CAFP.
 

c600g

Member
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
141
Reaction score
92
Location
Oceanside, CA
Country
llUnited States
I find it telling that you did NOT boldface the word "Locations" in the phrase "and a LOS exists between the two Locations". To be clear, "/units" should probably be appended to that sentence.
 
Top