ROUT !! question...

[Bruce Childs]

Playing HS27 last night, we ran into a question...

A Germ HT drives up to building occupied by a known Canadian MMC in Good Order. Another HT parks behind this first one. The Germ MMC in the first HT gets out and breaks. Assuming the Canadian MMC is a legal interdictor, the closest woods/building is way back across a plowed field in the rear of the German MMC, and other Canadians are able to interdict OG hexes beyond the HTs (i.e. the rout path of the German MMC), what are this German MMCs' legal rout options?

and yes, of course, its raining..... :roll:

 

[Brian W]

A Germ HT drives up to building occupied by a known Canadian MMC in Good Order. Another HT parks behind this first one. The Germ MMC in the first HT gets out and breaks. Assuming the Canadian MMC is a legal interdictor, the closest woods/building is way back across a plowed field in the rear of the German MMC, and other Canadians are able to interdict OG hexes beyond the HTs (i.e. the rout path of the German MMC), what are this German MMCs' legal rout options?

Based on this information, they may surrender or not. If the nearest woods/building is reachable then they surrender. If it is not reachable, then they can rout to the second HT (assuming that is not getting closer to a KEU). And of course all this assumes NQ is not in effect.

 

[rshurtz]

The question is somewhat more involved as Bruce's opponent I can say that yes the building was reachable. However the uncertainty we found was the statement in A20.21 of "during the RTPH". In other words if the unit is ADJACENT and unable to rout w/o LC or interdiction he will surrender. Does this mean if he meets both requirements in any given hex which he did not in this case (because he can rout to the 2nd HT without interdiction) OR if he is ADJACENT at the beginning of the phase and would be interdicted at any point later(i.e. the 2nd hex entered). Not sure if thats a clear explanation but there is is.

 

[Brian W]

The question is somewhat more involved as Bruce's opponent I can say that yes the building was reachable. However the uncertainty we found was the statement in A20.21 of "during the RTPH". In other words if the unit is ADJACENT and unable to rout w/o LC or interdiction he will surrender. Does this mean if he meets both requirements in any given hex which he did not in this case (because he can rout to the 2nd HT without interdiction) OR if he is ADJACENT at the beginning of the phase and would be interdicted at any point later(i.e. the 2nd hex entered). Not sure if thats a clear explanation but there is is.

They surrender.

 

[Bruce Childs]

I knew we should've got a screenshot...I hate to do it, but here goes, just for finality.

On the Rileys Road map, the Can MMC is at U17, another with an LMG is at w17. Germ HT's are in T16 and S16. NQ is of course not in effect. The nearest eligible rout hex is N16, too far for the broken squad in T16 alone to make it during this rout phase.

According to A20.21, I read "during" as meaning at that particular moment. He can rout to the second HT without interdiction, but then trouble arises.

We agreed (perhaps incorrectly) that he had at least 2 options.
1) LC to the HT in S16 (since he isnt able to be interdicted here),
2) Attempt to rout to the building (N16) and face interdiction,
3) Rout into the same-hex HT or into the S16 HT (this one wasnt discussed, but was a viable option albeit possibly not legal).

I hope this is clear and sorry for the text explanation without accompanying screenshot. I dislike these too, but this type of rout issue has popped up before and a clean answer would be sooo very much appreciated. I have an old opponent (no longer an opponent) that had the rout phase named after him (Cooper movement phase) for his "unique" interpretation of the rout rules. I'm trying to avoid this stigma.

thanks for your time and attention.

 

[da priest]

On the Rileys Road map, the Can MMC is at U17, another with an LMG is at V18. Germ HT's are in T16 and S16. NQ is of course not in effect. The nearest eligible rout hex is N16, too far for the broken squad in T16 alone to make it during this rout phase.

According to A20.21, I read "during" as meaning at that particular moment. He can rout to the second HT without interdiction, but then trouble arises.

We agreed (perhaps incorrectly) that he had at least 2 options.
1) LC to the HT in S16 (since he isnt able to be interdicted here),
2) Attempt to rout to the building (N16) and face interdiction,
3) Rout into the same-hex HT or into the S16 HT (this one wasnt discussed, but was a viable option albeit possibly not legal).

Well ya missed that he can start routing without being interdicted--or ADJACENT.

He can rout and since he can rout he can LC.

Also, you have "If no building/woods hex can be reached
during that RtPh, a broken unit may rout to any terrain hex consistent with the above restrictions."

Brian is wrong.

 

[Bruce Childs]

So much for finality...

Based on the info Brian had available to him, he wasnt wrong (though NQ would have obviously nulled this question). I had to look at the map to be sure the building wasnt reachable. A simple misunderstanding is all. My question, which I left out of my last post, should have been this-
Which of any of these options are legal?

Thanks much for replying guys, and sorry about the excessive blabbage.

btw, he routed into the S16 HT hex, then tried to make it to the building, but met an inglorious end.....

 

[Brian W]

Well ya missed that he can start routing without being interdicted--or ADJACENT.

He can rout and since he can rout he can LC.

Ron, if you graduated from high school you should get a lawyer and sue cause they gave you an education that must prevent you from using a toothbrush with any accuracy.

After your lack of ability to read and grasp elementary logic on the ASLML I should have expeceted you to shut up for awhile. Yet here you are again, passing out useless information. I certainly hope you do not playtest or proof read from MMP; I would guess you used to do so for CH. However, their product has gotten better recently so they must have fired you.

I mean, how do you play a game for so long and miss a basic part of the game. Have someone read A20.21 to you v e r y s l o w l y. If you have to rout, and when you rout you have to take interdiction or use low crawl, you surrender.

In this case, since the unit cannot go to a woods/building hex, then its rout route does not incur A20.21, as I posted earlier. If the building/wood hex was reachable, then they would surrender as I posted earlier.

I really think you should get a new hobby. I hear that pokeman cards are all the rage in your age group. Now, wipe the drool off your chin, and go back to watching tele-tubbies.

 

[da priest]

[quote="Brian W]I really think you should get a new hobby.

[/quote]

Alas, poor Brian, he protests too much--check the quotes in my post and see that I, unlike you, had the hex numbers etc--so your post was wrong.

As for new hobbies, check out Barbies, they seem your speed, either that or there are new pink pacifiers you can try.

 

[Brian W]

We agreed (perhaps incorrectly) that he had at least 2 options.
1) LC to the HT in S16 (since he isnt able to be interdicted here),
2) Attempt to rout to the building (N16) and face interdiction,
3) Rout into the same-hex HT or into the S16 HT (this one wasnt discussed, but was a viable option albeit possibly not legal).

Here is the picture. Concerning your point 2; there is no unit on this picture that can interdict the squad if it routs towards the building, the lmg squad cannot see any of this due to the crest and the squad adjacent will be firing through the hindrances of the halftracks. Assuming there is some other unit that can interdict (which the original question did state), or there is some OVHS rule that allows the lmg squad to see over crest lines, then both 1 and 2 are correct (although #1 is not a low crawl since you are not using all your MF). Number 3 is not legal [EXC: seaborne assaults/evacuations]

Now, let us address the question I think you are having. Let us pretend that the house is in hex O16, making it reachable (and there is still some other unit that can interdict). In that case, the squad surrenders. Even though the interdiction takes place after passing the second halftrack hex the squad "knows" it will get interdicted and so surrenders. Low Crawl is not an option since if a unit has to low crawl to avoid interdiction, it surrenders.

I suspect ron, who is busy brushing his rear orafice, plays that because the unit is not interdicted in the next hex it would not surrender even though it will be interdicted somewhere else. It is a common mistake.

 

[rshurtz]

Brian,

Thanks for posting the picture however the actual interdictor was in W17 457 with lmg.

 

[rshurtz]

Realizing we were wrong in thinking he could make it to N16. The question still stands what if the building were in o16?

 

[Brian W]

Realizing we were wrong in thinking he could make it to N16. The question still stands what if the building were in o16?

As I posted above, it surrenders.

 

[da priest]

I certainly hope you do not playtest or proof read from MMP; I would guess you used to do so for CH.

Must not let this pass(unfortunately).

Yes I do Proof for MMP--check out the Index--I missed to my chagrin one error--

But why I must post on this -- I did an informal proof of your Airforce thingee, many years ago----you changed it--had forgoten that---

Your failure to acknowledge seems to be my reason for "forgetfulness"--sigh--kids what do we do with'em?

Still think you're wrong on the rout--but --unlike you i'll check it out---

 

[Brian W]

>Still think you're wrong on the rout--but --unlike you i'll check it out

I am sure if you keep looking someone will read the rulebook to you.

 

[da priest]

Interesting, posted the issue on the Mailing List and so far two of the guys support my interpretation of the rout rules.

I'll keep you posted.

Now if Brian could quote chapter and verse maybe we could clear this up.

But wonder if the need to call names will prevent that.

 

[Bruce Childs]

GUYS- Really sorry but I blew the text description (typical). Randy is right about the interdictor (W17), but the point is the same. Can you see where some may stumble in rules interpretation? Thanks Brian for your time in putting up the screen shot. Free beer for all !!

 

[Bernard Howell]

Where's the love!

 

[da priest]

Well gang the count is 2-1 so far, here's the best analysis on both sides:


On Saturday, Mar 1, 2003, S McFarlane wrote:

Pretty sure he surrenders. I don't think A20.21 requires that the
interdiction hex be the first hex entered. Since he can't rout
without either taking Interdiction or low crawling, its Haende Hoch!

On Saturday, Mar 1, 2003, Wayne M. Hadady:

OTOH, A20.21 does require that there be adjacent enemy at the time
of Surrender. By the time the unit reaches the last tank and
breaks across the daylight for the target building, there are no
such enemy.


I've always read A20.21 to be a a hex-by-hex test. Surrender if:
o Adjacent to KEU .AND.
o Cannot
- Low Crawl .OR.
- Rout .OR.
- Rout w/out Interdiction-free option
the test being applied each and every hex of the rout.

In Ron's example, the Surrender conditions are never met, at a
single hex, so the unit is free to make for the building.

Will continue to keep ya posted if the ratio changes.

ron

 

[Brian W]

Now if Brian could quote chapter and verse maybe we could clear this up.

Chapter and verse:

A20.21 Any broken unit during its RtPh that is both ADJACENT to Known, Good Order, armed enemy Infantry/Cavalry and unable to rout away from it or only able to rout while being subject to Interdiction or resorting to Low Crawl (regardless of how it actually routs or if the possible Interdictor is Known to it), will surrender to that enemy unit as its prisoner instead, (captor's choice of unit receiving surrender if more than one unit qualifies) after first abandoning all its SW.

Emphasis in ASLRBv2. Emphasis mine.