Rout next to broken enemy unit

[James Taylor]

See the attached picture. Assume NO paths exist.

May the German squad in M8 rout M9,L9,K10 (2,4,6) and then remain in K10 without being eliminated for FTR?

Thanks ahead of time for feedback,

JT

 

[Mister T]

Nothing seems to prevent this move in the RB. I would say it is okay.

 

[Bret Hildebran]

That's a legal, albeit somewhat odd rout choice.

A10.5 has this: "...but it still may not be ADJACENT to an unbroken and armed Known enemy unit at the end of the RtPh or it will be eliminated for Failure to Rout."

But the ADJ enemy is not unbroken so all is well.

A10.51 also has this: "...nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit’s Location."

Obviously the broken unit isn't Known until the router has already moved ADJACENT, but given there's no requirement to move away at that point, it's a legal rout...

 

[James Taylor]

That's a legal, albeit somewhat odd rout choice.

Its a Rossi move... what can I say?

Ok... so now assume the German Squad starts in M9 AND Ground Snow is in effect.

May the German Squad rout L9, K10 (2,4) and then stay there since not able to rout further without routing next to a known enemy unit or towards a previously known enemy unit?

JT

 

[Bret Hildebran]

Yes. Still legal. Although I can't figure out what effect Ground Snow has on the equation - oh that would exempt him from spending his last MF to go into K9 I guess?

Even w/o Ground Snow the broken German could hang in K10. After all if he'd started in K10 broken, he wouldn't have to rout away, so why would it be different in the middle of the rout?

 

[Tater]

That's a legal, albeit somewhat odd rout choice.

A10.5 has this: "...but it still may not be ADJACENT to an unbroken and armed Known enemy unit at the end of the RtPh or it will be eliminated for Failure to Rout."

But the ADJ enemy is not unbroken so all is well.

A10.51 also has this: "...nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit’s Location."

Obviously the broken unit isn't Known until the router has already moved ADJACENT, but given there's no requirement to move away at that point, it's a legal rout...

I am not sure about this...if the brokie had LOS to the enemy unit before moving ADJACENT then it obviously couldn't move ADJACENT because said brokie would be moving closer while in LOS. So the fact is the only way the brokie could even attempt to get ADJACENT would be a situation just like this, where the enemy unit isn't Known until the brokie moves ADJACENT. So, the ONLY situation this statement could ever apply to is the case in point and the rule says you are "never" allowed to do it (barring the one exception).

Based on that I would say the brokie can't even enter K10.

 

[Bret Hildebran]

I'm reading it as "KEU from L9" which of course the broken Brit isn't known since he's out of LOS at that point. I agree it's not crystal clear.

IMO, the broken Brit is only known once you're in K10 and from that point it's too late to say you can't enter K10, isn't it? You just have to deal with it from that point on and there's nothing that says they die being next to a broken guy.

The key is "known" and when/where it applies and the rules aren't 100% clear on that unfortunately...

 

[Tater]

I'm reading it as "KEU from L9" which of course the broken Brit isn't known since he's out of LOS at that point. I agree it's not crystal clear.

IMO, the broken Brit is only known once you're in K10 and from that point it's too late to say you can't enter K10, isn't it? You just have to deal with it from that point on and there's nothing that says they die being next to a broken guy.

The key is "known" and when/where it applies and the rules aren't 100% clear on that unfortunately...

I don't think so...the rule clearly could only apply to the exact type situation given here. If he had LOS at L9 then the previous restrictions already enumerated (can't move closer while in LOS) take effect. It isn't like the writer didn't understand the term "Known" and all that it encompasses. The statement itself isn't even ambivalent..."never".

I really get the feeling that most of the "Known" used in A10.5-.51 are more the unconcealed type. So maybe our writer didn't understand the term "Known" as well as one might hope. Anyway, I think it would do well for a clarification (the wording is the same for v1 & v2).

 

[James Taylor]

I'm reading it as "KEU from L9" which of course the broken Brit isn't known since he's out of LOS at that point. I agree it's not crystal clear.

IMO, the broken Brit is only known once you're in K10 and from that point it's too late to say you can't enter K10, isn't it? You just have to deal with it from that point on and there's nothing that says they die being next to a broken guy.

The key is "known" and when/where it applies and the rules aren't 100% clear on that unfortunately...

Ok...

Rossi pointed this out to me... and I on my read he appeared correct, but I was not sure I had ever seen it occur... so figured to post here and get some feedback.

One last thing... remove the ground snow assumption in that last situation. The broken German squad gets to K10 and has the mf to go up the hills around him, but the ONLY option to continue routing he would have would be K9 because he cannot rout ADJACENT to the brokie in J10 once he has become Known, correct?

Thanks,

JT

 

[Bret Hildebran]

One last thing... remove the ground snow assumption in that last situation. The broken German squad gets to K10 and has the mf to go up the hills around him, but the ONLY option to continue routing he would have would be K9 because he cannot rout ADJACENT to the brokie in J10 once he has become Known, correct?

Correct - you can never rout ADJ to a KEU other than leaving his hex so the only option to continue routing would be up the hill into K9.

 

[Bret Hildebran]

I don't think so...the rule clearly could only apply to the exact type situation given here. If he had LOS at L9 then the previous restrictions already enumerated (can't move closer while in LOS) take effect. It isn't like the writer didn't understand the term "Known" and all that it encompasses. The statement itself isn't even ambivalent..."never".

Well we do have this in A10.51: "...nor may it move toward such an enemy unit after leaving its LOS during that RtPh;" - that covers a "once known" enemy unit.

We also have: "If a newly-Known enemy unit prevents this, a new destination is re-figured from that point." Nothing says that this only applies to newly unconcealed units - I'd think the broken Brit would qualify, but given he's broken there's no forcing the brokie to continue his rout.

I really get the feeling that most of the "Known" used in A10.5-.51 are more the unconcealed type. So maybe our writer didn't understand the term "Known" as well as one might hope. Anyway, I think it would do well for a clarification (the wording is the same for v1 & v2).

I hope that one of the more basic (but confusing) rules sections would not miss a basic index definition: "Known Enemy Unit (any unconcealed, non-prisoner enemy unit—even one which is broken or in Melee—which the unit in question currently has a LOS to):"

Not to say it's not possible, but I'd presume/hope v2 would have caught it if the meaning was omniscient player "Known" rather than factoring in the routing unit's LOS into the "Known" equation.

 

[Tater]

Not to say it's not possible, but I'd presume/hope v2 would have caught it if the meaning was omniscient player "Known" rather than factoring in the routing unit's LOS into the "Known" equation.

I agree...but the wording is exactly the same in v2...that is it says "never" and only gives the one exception.

Bottom line, the only time this rule would every apply is when moving ADJACENT to a "Known" enemy unit that wasn't "Known" until the brokie got ADJACENT...any other scenario (i.e., LOS before getting ADJACENT)and the brokie never gets that close.

Strikes me that the intention might be to avoid the hokie situation of a brokie routing ADJACENT to an unconcealed GO enemy unit and then continuing to rout on...for example:

(Using the same map snap-shot)
German brokie starts in M9
German leader in L10
Knwn GO Brit in N10
unconcealed GO Brit in K9

In the above scenario the brokie can't rout to M10 but can (based on your interpretation) rout ADJACENT (L9) to the Brit in K9 and then continue to L10 to reach the leader. Just seems odd to me that this could happen and the GO Brit unit in K9 can do absolutely nothing to hinder the movement of the brokies in any way. In fact there could be a platoon of Brit MMC armed with HMG and a 10-3 leader and they will just sit and watch the broken Germans sprint on by. On top of that it also goes against the concept that brokies are some what "out of control".

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'm reading it as "KEU from L9" which of course the broken Brit isn't known since he's out of LOS at that point.

I agree.

The A10.5 example says this as well I think.

A10.5 example:
"EX: German units Occupy 5M2, K2, and K4. The broken Russian unit in L2 must rout away from the Known enemy units in M2 and K2 without moving ADJACENT to them, so it routs to L3 where it now discovers a Known enemy unit ADJACENT in K4..."

 

[Tater]

I agree.

The A10.5 example says this as well I think.

A10.5 example:
"EX: German units Occupy 5M2, K2, and K4. The broken Russian unit in L2 must rout away from the Known enemy units in M2 and K2 without moving ADJACENT to them, so it routs to L3 where it now discovers a Known enemy unit ADJACENT in K4..."

Well, that's that I guess...didn't catch the example.