Rout Destination

Stewart

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THINK TANK Come Alive
Where is the Rout Destination and WHY?
Where can he NOT rout to and WHY?
 

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Philippe D.

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I'd say the initial target hex has to be either K2 or O6 (though O6 can be ignored, and cannot be reached anyway as it would imply moving closer to K8 at some point).

First thing though, if No Quarter is not in effect, the broken unit will surrender as its only first routing hex is Open Ground (N3) to M5, and thus would require Interdiction or Low Crawl.

If No Quarter is in effect, one option is to Low Crawl to N3 and stay there. Any other option requires risking Interdiction at least twice, in N3 and the next hex. I never remember if the target hex is reassessed permanently or not; if not, I'd say the original target hex (K2) remains valid, and so the rout path must be N3, N2, M3, L1, where K2 becomes an illegal target since it would require moving closer to K8, and the new target becomes L0.
 

CTKnudsen

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I would argue that P5 and K2 are 5 MF away, as you cannot rout through a hex that is ADJACENT to a known unit. The rulebook never really comes out and says this (that I can find). However, A10.51 first lists a bunch of things that a routing unit CANNOT do, and then says "Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex..." This leads me to believe that the MF calculation cannot include doing something illegal, like routing through a Location ADJACENT to an enemy unit that the routing unit was aware of at the beginning of its rout.

In this situation, N0, P1 and P5 would all be valid rout targets at 5MF, although P5 is definitely ignorable.

Another possibility? I've been playing this wrong the whole time, and valid destinations are calculated by tracing paths that can disregard whether the unit can actually rout through the hex or not. In this case, both K2 and P5 are valid targets, although P5 will still be ignorable.

In either case, the unit can only rout if No Quarter is in effect. If so, it will be interdicted several times as it routs, unless it uses Low Crawl. P5 is definitely the safer choice in that regard, as the unit will only be interdicted twice.
 

General Mayhem

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I may be wrong but wouldn't routing to P5 entail closing at some point on KEU in K8 so therefore P5 is not a valid rout destination. I believe that the only valid rout destinations are N0 and P1 both 5 hexes away, but only if NQ is in effect.
 

Jazz

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Agree that P5, K2, No, P1, and P5 are all valid and equally ranked rout targets. All are 5 MP distant along a legal rout path. All possible paths risk interdiction at least once.
 

Jazz

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I may be wrong but wouldn't routing to P5 entail closing at some point on KEU in K8 so therefore P5 is not a valid rout destination. I believe that the only valid rout destinations are N0 and P1 both 5 hexes away, but only if NQ is in effect.
Nope, actually rout to P5 stays equidistant to enemy units in the last 2-3 hexes.

Correction: you are correct. it does go closer to the units in K8, even thought they are out of LOS at that point, they were in LOS at the start of the rout. K2 is out as well for the same reason.
 

CTKnudsen

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K2 is out because it is 6MF away - start in M4, N3, N2, M2, L2, K2 - 6MF, whereas N0, P1, and P5 are 5MF.

The point about P5 being invalid because the legal rout path closes distance is interesting. I have always thought that so long as you were not getting closer than the initial distance, you were ok. So in this (quite possibly incorrect) interpretation, a rout to P5 in which the range to K8 increases distance to 6 hexes while moving through N3 and O4, but then moves back to a 5-hex distance in O5/P5 would be alright.

But reading A10.51 more closely, I see that I may have had this wrong...
 

MajorDomo

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My opinion is that with no quarter, P1 or Q6 are the rout destination options after the others must be thrown out.

I believe that in routing, omniscense is allowed for all know in LOS units and impassable terrain. This eliminates the closer destinations which are unattainable due to moving closer to known enemy units during rout.

My .02 cents,
Rich
 

Jazz

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Q6? Not seeing it? I agree with your point about P1 and also N0.....and I do believe that once a rout is started the unit can never move closer to a KEU from its current location in the rout path.
 

zgrose

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Another possibility? I've been playing this wrong the whole time, and valid destinations are calculated by tracing paths that can disregard whether the unit can actually rout through the hex or not. In this case, both K2 and P5 are valid targets, although P5 will still be ignorable.
I've always understood the rule to be that you calculate the MF cost w/o respect to the legality of the rout path, but w/ respect to the legality of the move (e.g. can't move through enemy units, etc).
Once a rout destination is determined, then one calculates if they can reach it legally (i.e "As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route..."). If one cannot, then they're free to move (legally) where you would like (i.e. "If no non-ignorable building/woods Location can be reached during that RtPh, a broken unit may rout to any terrain hex consistent with the above restrictions...).

At least that's how I've always read the flow of A10.51.
 

CTKnudsen

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I've always understood the rule to be that you calculate the MF cost w/o respect to the legality of the rout path, but w/ respect to the legality of the move (e.g. can't move through enemy units, etc).
Once a rout destination is determined, then one calculates if they can reach it legally (i.e "As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route..."). If one cannot, then they're free to move (legally) where you would like (i.e. "If no non-ignorable building/woods Location can be reached during that RtPh, a broken unit may rout to any terrain hex consistent with the above restrictions...).

At least that's how I've always read the flow of A10.51.
Not sure if I understand how you differentiate between legality of rout path and legality of move here. Do you mean that for determining valid rout destination the MF is governed by shortest possible MF regardless of presence of enemy, so long any prospective rout (even over multiple RtPh) does not violate moving "towards" a KEU at any point in the rout? I take "toward" to mean "reducing distance in hexes", BTW.

Were that the case (and I'm not arguing against by any means), the OP example would only have 2 choices, K2 or P5. Both are at 4MF by most direct route. P5 is ignorable but selectable. In this case, N0 and P1 could not be valid destinations, as they are at 5MF.
 

Eagle4ty

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N0 & P1 are the only valid rout destination hexes as they are the closest in MF at the time of the initial rout determination that do not entail violating other conditions of rout (e.g. moving through a hex that would bring it adjacent/closer to a KEU). As the 1st hex to be entered must be N3 the next can be no closer to a KEU either and still must abide by the fewest number of MF to get to the destination hex [EXC: use of shellholes, foxholes, etc.]; It can then rout to either N2 (getting no closer to L3) or O3 (getting further away from all units), and thence on to either N1-N0 or O2/P2 and then to the destination hex as appropriate. K2 & P5 are out because once the rout has commenced you would be moving closer to a KEU at some point, Q6 is out because of the MF to get there.
 

CTKnudsen

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N0 & P1 are the only valid rout destination hexes as they are the closest in MF at the time of the initial rout determination that do not entail violating other conditions of rout (e.g. moving through a hex that would bring it adjacent/closer to a KEU). As the 1st hex to be entered must be N3 the next can be no closer to a KEU either and still must abide by the fewest number of MF to get to the destination hex [EXC: use of shellholes, foxholes, etc.]; It can then rout to either N2 (getting no closer to L3) or O3 (getting further away from all units), and thence on to either N1-N0 or O2/P2 and then to the destination hex as appropriate. K2 & P5 are out because once the rout has commenced you would be moving closer to a KEU at some point, Q6 is out because of the MF to get there.
Of course, I am still stuck in the mindset that you can close a bit so long as you don't get closer than when you started. If that is wrong, then N0 and P1, or low crawl are the only options barring surrender.
 

Jazz

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Of course, I am still stuck in the mindset that you can close a bit so long as you don't get closer than when you started. If that is wrong, then N0 and P1, or low crawl are the only options barring surrender.
A10.51 seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me?

A10.51 DIRECTION: A routing unit may never rout toward a Known armed enemy unit (even if that enemy unit is broken or disrupted), while in that enemy unit’s LOS, in any way which decreases the range in hexes between the routing unit and the Known armed enemy unit [EXC: Passengers, D6.1]; nor may it move toward such an enemy unit after leaving its LOS during that RtPh; nor, if ADJACENT to a Known armed enemy unit, may it rout into another hex ADJACENT to that same enemy unit. ....
No mention of moving closer than the original location.....just moving closer. The highlighted passage states categorically it applies during the rout after leaving LOS, and by a trivial extension, it applies during the whole of the rout, LOS or not.
 

Jazz

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Not sure if I understand how you differentiate between legality of rout path and legality of move here. Do you mean that for determining valid rout destination the MF is governed by shortest possible MF regardless of presence of enemy, so long any prospective rout (even over multiple RtPh) does not violate moving "towards" a KEU at any point in the rout? I take "toward" to mean "reducing distance in hexes", BTW.

Were that the case (and I'm not arguing against by any means), the OP example would only have 2 choices, K2 or P5. Both are at 4MF by most direct route. P5 is ignorable but selectable. In this case, N0 and P1 could not be valid destinations, as they are at 5MF.
Again A10.51
A10.51.......Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex
 

Jazz

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Interesting Q&A seems to indicate that validity/legality of a rout path/target do not enter into the determination of the formal rout target:

A10.5 & A10.51
Using the A10.531 Example, assume there is a German unit in J2 with the broken Russian unit. Also assume there is no German
unit in K4. It is the start of that Russian's unit rout. When determining the unit's rout destination (nearest in MF non-ignorable
woods/building, determined at start of its RtPh), MUST building K2 be the initially declared rout destination (nearest nonignorable
woods/building at 2MF away), even though the unit may not end its RtPh there due to the KEU in J2? Basically, when
determining a valid rout destination at the start of a units rout (A10.51), does a Known enemy unit IN the same Location as the
broken unit at the start of the RtPh automatically preclude any ADJACENT woods/building from being a valid rout target, since
the broken unit may not END a RtPh there (A10.51)?
A. K2 must be declared initially; upon reaching K2, the router must re-figure his destination.
News to me.....but there it is.
 

zgrose

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Not sure if I understand how you differentiate between legality of rout path and legality of move here. Do you mean that for determining valid rout destination the MF is governed by shortest possible MF regardless of presence of enemy, so long any prospective rout (even over multiple RtPh) does not violate moving "towards" a KEU at any point in the rout? I take "toward" to mean "reducing distance in hexes", BTW.

Were that the case (and I'm not arguing against by any means), the OP example would only have 2 choices, K2 or P5. Both are at 4MF by most direct route. P5 is ignorable but selectable. In this case, N0 and P1 could not be valid destinations, as they are at 5MF.
Yes, as I understand it K4, M6 (edit: not M6, that is 4MF) and N5 are all the closest woods/building (3MF) and are all ignorable (no further from a KEU than where it started) so we go to the 4MF woods/buildings K2, (edit)M6, O6, P5. O6(edit)O6/M6 won't be a legal rout (closer to KEU) so that leaves K2, P5. You can't reach P5 (5 hexes from K8) because you'll first have to be 6 hexes away in your first hex of movement (N3) so that leaves K2. You can't reach K2 (6 hexes from K8) since you'll have to be at 7 hexes away in the second hex of movement (N2).

Since you can't reach a non-ignorable hex, you can go wherever. I presume to(wards) N0 or P1.

(edits: tweaked rationale for M6)
 

Jeff Sewall

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With regards to the Q&A referenced by Jazz, I think that's a special case where a broken unit is routing out of a hex containing an enemy unit. In that case, the unit's initial move by definition must be adjacent to the KEU. So since K2 is a legal hex to rout to (in that case), K2 must be chosen as the initial rout destination.
 

General Mayhem

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Interesting Q&A seems to indicate that validity/legality of a rout path/target do not enter into the determination of the formal rout target:



News to me.....but there it is.
But that is specific to the situation where the routing unit is in the same hex as an enemy unit is it not?
 
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