RO CG2

Craig Benn

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It was a misprint. They meant to switch two 1st line Coys to 2nd line Coys but cocked up.

Only explanation that makes sense.😎
 

Honza

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It was a misprint. They meant to switch two 1st line Coys to 2nd line Coys but cocked up.

Only explanation that makes sense.😎
In which case there would be errata.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If it was a misprint, then that happened when a play test version was transferred to the submitted version. The printed version is per the submitted version.
 

Honza

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The Germans have to eliminate 12 coy of Russian infantry (mostly elite) and cover about a quarter of the map. All in 5 CG dates and with only 15 coy of infantry. I do not think that is a walkover.
 

Craig Benn

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Honza,

You should play it instead of theorizing and see if you still think the same.

I doubt the Germans will need to eliminate 12 Russian Coys because it's unlikely to last 5 dates. Comparing the theoretical 15:12 company ratio implies a fairly balanced 5:4 ratio. But in fact on the board it will never be like that.

On the first date I played it was 80 German squads + 24 reinforcements vs 33 Russian squads + 12 reinforcements (+ 16 reserve (1 Coy depleted)- which the Germans could ignore until theyd defeated the rest). The Germans stupidly didn't buy the extremely cheap Stukas which would have delayed my reinforcements. So between 2:1 and 2.5 to 1 at the point of contact.

Now assume both sides lose 30 squads on the first date. Pretty good going for the force ratio but assume the Russian player is more skilled and lucky.

Date2: At start forces 74 German vs 31 Russian squads. Both sides buy 2 Companies - 98 vs 55 assuming no depletion (which is more likely for the Russians).

I'll have the Germans thanks.

It will never be 5:4 at the point of contact.
 

Eagle4ty

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Honza,

You should play it instead of theorizing and see if you still think the same.

I doubt the Germans will need to eliminate 12 Russian Coys because it's unlikely to last 5 dates. Comparing the theoretical 15:12 company ratio implies a fairly balanced 5:4 ratio. But in fact on the board it will never be like that.

On the first date I played it was 80 German squads + 24 reinforcements vs 33 Russian squads + 12 reinforcements (+ 16 reserve (1 Coy depleted)- which the Germans could ignore until theyd defeated the rest). The Germans stupidly didn't buy the extremely cheap Stukas which would have delayed my reinforcements. So between 2:1 and 2.5 to 1 at the point of contact.

Now assume both sides lose 30 squads on the first date. Pretty good going for the force ratio but assume the Russian player is more skilled and lucky.

Date2: At start forces 74 German vs 31 Russian squads. Both sides buy 2 Companies - 98 vs 55 assuming no depletion (which is more likely for the Russians).

I'll have the Germans thanks.

It will never be 5:4 at the point of contact.
Not to mention the force multipliers (OBA, smoke-brining-StuGs, SWs, etc.) are certainly in the Germans favor, especially at the points of contact that are dictated by the Germans.
 

jrv

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Fair warning: I have only read the rules, not played the CG. As best I can tell, to turn the factory area into a pocket, the Germans would have to capture both the south edge and the east edge, or at least cut the factories off from those edges. If the factories still connect with the south and/or east edges, they are "in supply", and on-map/reserve reinforcements can set up there. Dade Cariaga says (rightly) that if the Germans push eastward their northern perimeter, they can bring the entry area for Soviet infantry under fire. He goes on to say, "So, clearly, the Russian must avoid this situation at all costs." Yet the Soviets can still retain RGs they purchased for entry from off-map and set them up on-map in the next CG date—as with all retained RGs/units—as long as the factories are connected to at least one south/east map edge hex. Or they can purchase their infantry on-map or in reserve. As best I can tell Cariaga's strategy is certainly an inconvenience for the Soviets but not a game winner in and of itself. There's still a lot of work to do.

Note I do not have anything to say about force ratios. It may be that the Germans just run over the Soviets like an avalanche. But I don't see gaining the east edge or gaining LOS to the east edge as a game-winning move. It might be helpful to the Germans, but that's all. Gaining the east edge combined with the south edge does put the Soviets in a pocket, and that might be fatal if done soon enough.

JR
 
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stuh42asl

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Well like I have said the tunnel from the finger gulley to hall 4 allowed the Russians to re-inforce the factory. From the research I have done, that tunnel was a life saver since it allowed the re-enforcing squads to move up without being exposed. It makes perfect sense to try to cut of the Russians from the river.....do that = no re-enforcements, ammo, equipment, food etc.
 

stuh42asl

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By pushing to the river, north and south of the factory complex, then clearing the rive edge
 

jrv

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By pushing to the river, north and south of the factory complex, then clearing the rive edge
My best reading is that river edge hexes are not sufficient to prevent isolation for the Soviets. By my reading if the Soviets are cut off from the map edges, they are isolated. A q&a request has been sent by another player regarding that, so it isn't something that needs to be debated again. If my understanding is correct then the job is easier for the Germans, and only the south and east edges have to be seized.

JR
 
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bendizoid

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Well like I have said the tunnel from the finger gulley to hall 4 allowed the Russians to re-inforce the factory. From the research I have done, that tunnel was a life saver since it allowed the re-enforcing squads to move up without being exposed. It makes perfect sense to try to cut of the Russians from the river.....do that = no re-enforcements, ammo, equipment, food etc.
One way to make a longer tunnel is to use an expensive pillbox as a waypoint. Sewer movement is also a good option.
 
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jrv

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One way to make a longer tunnel is to use an expensive pillbox as a waypoint.
That's very clever. Depending on where you want the tunnel to go it may be unnecessary to purchase a pillbox. For instance you could run two tunnels from FF19 to CC21 to Z22. But if you plan to bring on reinforcements on the east edge and run them into the factories, it's going to take a fair amount of time. Enter and move to FF19 then tunnel to CC21 then tunnel to Z22 for three turns. (see edit below). And that assumes the Germans don't put JJ16 et. al. under fire.

edit: ordinarily a tunnel can't have entrance hexes on different levels [B8.6]. In Red Factories they can but only when the tunnel crosses a cliff with the lower level hex beside that cliff being one of the entrances. [O.2 RF16]. The greater difficulty in putting in a tunnel from the river edge to the factories on the Red October map, even an extended one, is not finding a way to make the middle hex work. It's finding a suitable entrance hex on the river edge in which to place an entrance. The hex still has to be brush, building, woods or pillbox, and in addition it has to be next to a cliff. By q&a a pillbox may not be placed in a gully, so the number of river-level hexes you might use is small.

On the other hand the finger gully connects via sewer from bb25 to Z24 to Z21/W24/X25. That may be the "tunnel" that was being sought. Since by ssr the Soviets can use sewer movement, the only potential difficulty is getting lost. The sewer out of FF31 will also get you into the factories, but it takes forever.

JR
 
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stuh42asl

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That's very clever. Depending on where you want the tunnel to go it may be unnecessary to purchase a pillbox. For instance you could run two tunnels from FF19 to CC21 to Z22. But if you plan to bring on reinforcements on the east edge and run them into the factories, it's going to take a fair amount of time. Enter and move to FF19 then tunnel to CC21 then tunnel to Z22 for three turns. (see edit below). And that assumes the Germans don't put JJ16 et. al. under fire.

edit: ordinarily a tunnel can't have entrance hexes on different levels [B8.6]. In Red Factories they can but only when the tunnel crosses a cliff with the lower level hex beside that cliff being one of the entrances. [O.2 RF16]. The greater difficulty in putting in a tunnel from the river edge to the factories on the Red October map, even an extended one, is not finding a way to make the middle hex work. It's finding a suitable entrance hex on the river edge in which to place an entrance. The hex still has to be brush, building, woods or pillbox, and in addition it has to be next to a cliff. By q&a a pillbox may not be placed in a gully, so the number of river-level hexes you might use is small.

On the other hand the finger gully connects via sewer from bb25 to Z24 to Z21/W24/X25. That may be the "tunnel" that was being sought. Since by ssr the Soviets can use sewer movement, the only potential difficulty is getting lost. The sewer out of FF31 will also get you into the factories, but it takes forever.

JR
From the research I did the tunnel runs from Hall 4 to the finger gully it was designed for that building, so getting lost would not be the problem. The problem would be the time to get a platoon + equipment thru. A platoon has a lot to carry.
 

Eagle4ty

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From the research I did the tunnel runs from Hall 4 to the finger gully it was designed for that building, so getting lost would not be the problem. The problem would be the time to get a platoon + equipment thru. A platoon has a lot to carry.
It was a large tunnel (more like a culvert).
 
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