RO CG2

Honza

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Also don't forget that in RO the German leaders are of lower quality than in RB and also their numbers of HMG are greatly reduced. This prevents the accumulation of death stars which proved to be so deadly in RB.
 

Honza

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I also think that if it was not playtested the forces would 'look' more balanced. The designer would have chosen two similar sized forces to give the impression of balance. The fact that the two forces are very disparate indicates that the CG was tested and the Russians had the edge with a larger force. Does not that make sense?
 

STAVKA

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Any German coy that have to enter are out of the scenario until possibly very late in the scenario because they have to cross the width of the map.
The Germans can enter along the north edge (not only the West edge) and attack building V2 head-on.
I am curiously awaiting the results of several playings of this CG to see if the Russian can pull out any wins.
Doubt there will be much, if any result reported, since it will not be played due to the design.
 

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Also don't forget that in RO the German leaders are of lower quality than in RB and also their numbers of HMG are greatly reduced. This prevents the accumulation of death stars which proved to be so deadly in RB.
The Russians also have lower quality of leaders and reduced numbers of HMGs, your arguments are not balanced, just like the CGs.
 

Honza

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The Russians also have lower quality of leaders and reduced numbers of HMGs, your arguments are not balanced, just like the CGs.
One rarely hears anything about Russian death stars. It was the German who benefited from this tactic.
 

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The “300” occupied a natural choke point that reduced the amount of man power the Persians could put at the point of attack...not the case here.

The problem with the fortifications is that you got to have terrain to tie them to for funneling the enemy...the Reds do not control any of the restrictive (choke) points on the map. AP mines are to expensive for the broad front the Ruski has to cover...the 85FPP the Reds start with would net 4 minefields...even if the commies maxed FPP (245) that still nets 13 minefields...on a map that is 35 hexes long. And that requires a total sellout for forts.

The only chance I see is to counter attack where the Nazis aren’t...but with so much infantry at their disposal, there is no where they can’t cover...in strength.
I think you got me on the "300" Tater, haha. There may be a few places where there are choke points. I need to look at the map again.

I would not favor a broad use of minefields. I would prefer to use them in building hedgehogs, with some sort of mutual support on the flanks, maybe some pillboxes. I don't usually like pillboxes because of the effect of smoke, but if you have a MG, you can setup a nice FL, even if your pillbox get smoked.

I really like the counterattack plan. I think it would help to get sneaky with HIP.
 
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FrankJ

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Also don't forget that in RO the German leaders are of lower quality than in RB and also their numbers of HMG are greatly reduced. This prevents the accumulation of death stars which proved to be so deadly in RB.
The reduced HMG's sure is significant. That would bring new value to the HW Pltn. Its seems in RB that its hard to justify spending 6 points on a HW's RG when you can buy a first line COY that came with a HMG.
 

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Honza,

Your maths is way off. Because reserves have to be 6 hexes from the front lines and because there are numerous German salients, the number of places where you can put reserves is very limited. And because the Germans are in places only 9-10 hexes from the Volga, you can't afford to not man the front lines. The German player can ignore the reserves pretty much until the Russian at start forces are destroyed or broken, and then engage as many or as few of them as he wishes.

So it's 7 Companies vs 3 Companies. As a Russian paying +2CPP to set a Company on map when you only have 12 CPP in total is a big call. It means giving up vital OBA, fortifications or a third company. Russians coming in as reinforcements are at a disadvantage as the entry areas are very much at the north and south and the Germans get Stukas. That auto-pin is going to stop you moving stacks quickly in open ground, never mind the MG's and bombs. The German reinforcements may well get to the front line before the Russians do as they can move freely behind the lines.

But comparing companies understates the difference. Apart from a single 8 squad pioneer company, all the German companies have 12 squads and only deplete on a 12 (1 in 36). At least one Russian company is a SMG company (9 squads) while with only 12 CPP its likely at least another 9 squad SMG company will be bought as they are cheaper (4 vs 5 CPP). And all the Russian companies deplete on 10+ (6 in 36).

The relative cheapness of Russian infantry (5 vs 7 for a Rifle Coy) is not very important because the historical modifiers mean the Russians can only buy 2 Coys on Dates 2 and 3 and 1 Coy on Date 4 and 5. The Germans can easily match or exceed that. And its not enough to replace the huge losses the Russians will suffer on the first date. They are re always going to be behind the curve.

The reduced leadership and lack of HMG's is a good thing. It makes a much better game and would improve Red Barricades IMO. I think the change slightly favours the Russians but it's nowhere near enough.

Also you've basically made an argument because it doesn't look balanced, that must mean it is because it's been playtested so much.
That isn't even logic.

Sorry to rant. I get you like Stalingrad and MMP (I do too) but play it and see how you feel then.
 

Honza

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Also you've basically made an argument because it doesn't look balanced, that must mean it is because it's been playtested so much.
That isn't even logic.
Not even Tapio would release such an unbalanced looking CG. We are talking about Fort who has played ASL for years and is a renowned designer. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until it is PROVEN otherwise. He must have been aware that this CG 'looks' terribly unbalanced.
 

Honza

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The German at start OB includes 2x 2nd line Coy, 2x 1st line Coy and 3x Elite Coy. A lot of the German OB is fragile because of the 2nd line and 1st line infantry. The Russians get 3x Elite Coy a HW pltn and 4 Guns. I personally would be willing to purchase on map set up for a further 1st line rifle coy to make it 4 coy manning the front lines. With a 1st line smg coy in reserve and 2CPP for OBA or forts.

Further more all of the infantry purchased by the Russians in subsequent scenarios can be elite so that they get 6x more elite coy. The German will be able to buy 2 coy on both of the next two days and one coy on the last two days. However there are only 3 Sturm coy available; after that if he wants elite he must buy pioniers. So basically he gets four more elite coy max. The rest will be 1st line.

The sum is that the Russian has 9x elite coy available and up to 3x 1st line, while the German has 7x elite coy and 2x 2nd line 4x 1st line.

12:13 coy....not a huge difference. With the Russians having more elite troops.
 

Craig Benn

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That still isn't logic.
That's relying on someone's reputation against empirical evidence.

Fort did the 'to the bridge' action pack right? I really enjoyed that. Played about half the scenarios and thought them well balanced apart from maybe Thai Hot (which was damn good fun none the less).

I'm a pretty good player and have won a few tournaments. I trust my judgement. I agree it isn't proven...yet. But having played the Russians on the first date nothing has persuaded me my first instincts were wrong.

The fact FORT playtested it is not proof it"s balanced. More than one person play tests. For a product like this, lots of people. Where there were conflicting opinions, whose voice prevailed? I don't know, but I do know having played it as the Russians its extremely hard.
 

Craig Benn

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I'm about to go and play a game. But I think your maths is still suspect. I make it 15:12. But that's not the point - the ratio of companies over 5 dates isn't important. Both sides will incur casualties to lower the total number of squads on the board at any one time. The Russians wont recover from the Day1 beating they get.
 

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We have decided against RO 2 and are selecting something else.

BTW, it isn't just the force delta but also where those forces can setup. The Russian starts with almost all his setup area under German FP. A 3rd of the Russian setup area is already practically surrounded. As soon as any Russian Gun/SW/SMC shows their head the German will be able to hammer them into dust with all the massive FP. I also disagree with the term "brittle" being applied to German 1st liner troops.

The German uses the 447's to hold flanks and slow advance. He uses the cream of his troops to hammer everywhere else.

As to Fort and playtesting...he did the KGP CG...'nuff said.
 

Vinnie

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We tried this one and abandoned it after two sessions. The russkis were just getting pounded. Sure, you can infiltrate back behind the lines but you simply do not have enough stuff to fight with. Any concentration of Russian units gets overwhelmed by German ones. I'm sure I'm missing something. Maybe you need to fortify a back point and slowly slowly retreat to it.
 

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Tate

You are listed on the playtest credits in RO. What did you playtest?
Really, I checked my PT folders and didn’t find any RO materials...I think I may have proofed some rules, I don’t recall actually playing anything. OTOH, I turn 60 this year so, the gray matter filling cabinet ain’t what it use to be.
 
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