RO CG2

Tater

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My buds and I have chosen to play Red October CG2, I have the Ruski’s.

My question is, how do the Ruski’s pull this off? I have run the numbers and based on starting forces I don’t see how the commies can avoid being just totally overwhelmed in the first scenario.

The Germans start with 7 infantry coy plus 17 CPP vs 3 Ruski coy and 12 CPP...the Ruski map position has their back practically against the Volga.

Anyone who has tried this as the Ruski got any insight...is this going to be an imbalanced dog or am I missing something? Should we pick a different CG?
 

Craig Benn

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There was a thread on this a while ago which was kicked off by Dade Carriaga's facebook post that the CG was unwinnable as the Russians.

I've played the first date as part of the combined RO/RB as the Russians. Its absolutely brutal - I think I played a strong defence AND had decent luck at crucial points and by the end was still almost wiped out, losing huge chunks of territory even though the kill ratio despite the disparity of forces was fairly even.

The starting forces (before purchases) are 80 German vs 33 Russian squads. 7 German Coys have a 1/36 chance of depletion - 3 Russian have 1/6 chance of depletion.

The Germans can buy another 2 Coys as reinforcements entering from the map edge and hit you with another 24 squads by Turn3-4. So I don't see any other option but to max out infantry. The 12 points is a killer - you need to buy 3 companies but you want them as reinforcements not reserves as the Germans can just engage as much of them as they want. But you just can't afford them. I felt the optimum buys were 1 Rifle Coy as reinforcements (5), 2 SMG Coy's in reserve (6) and 1 x 80mm OBA.

That still leaves 104 squads vs 45 squads (+18 in reserve) so the Russians have to concentrate on core areas and leave big chunks of the map occupied only by dummies/cloaks.

I put 9 or so squads in the eastern part of the Martinoffen/ rubble fields. Nothing in the western half as it's untenable. The eastern half is as well but I wanted the Germans to commit large forces here as you are not immediately killed for failure to rout. The bulk of my starting forces went into the Hall10 and the Z30 building area. I only had 4 squads and the OBA observer in the castle, with 3/4 of the reinforcing Rifle Coy heading that way.

The Martinoffen fell by Turn3. The castle supported by spotted 82mm fire and OBA put up a sterling fight and attacking Germans got caught in a pincer by the reinforcing Rifle losing 7-8 squads . Even so the Germans repositioned enough troops from their healthy surplus to nearly capture all of it by end game. The Hall/Z30 also kept the Germans at arms length until turns 5-6 when weight of numbers started to crush the defenders.

I hate to claim something's unbalanced when I haven't played both sides - but I'll stick my neck out and say this is a dog.
It might be okay to give the germans to a newbie.
 

Craig Benn

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As the German I would have bought early Stukas which make any Russian maneuvers much more difficult. You get 2-4 as well for only 1 or 2 points. No Russian AA guns either. As if it wasn't difficult enough.
 

FMFCB

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We are currently playing this CG as the Russians. Squad losses are about equal but Russian are being pushed into a smaller and smaller semi circle. Which was isollated at the end of last CG date. We has to counterattack in southeast corner to linkup with the map edge. As it stands I have to agree that the Russians are in a bad spot against any non newbie German player.
 

STAVKA

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...is this going to be an imbalanced dog or am I missing something? Should we pick a different CG?
We have checked all Red October CGs and they are paper Products (dogs).

After playing Scenario RO1 Blood On The Tracks and finding out that it was the most unbalanced scenario played for years, if MMP fails with such a popcorn scenario we feared that the CGs are just guessworks like CH Products,
 

dr dull

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We have checked all Red October CGs and they are paper Products (dogs).

After playing Scenario RO1 Blood On The Tracks and finding out that it was the most unbalanced scenario played for years, if MMP fails with such a popcorn scenario we feared that the CGs are just guessworks like CH Products,
Too bad, mmp used to mean a quality product, 😭
 

STAVKA

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Too bad, mmp used to mean a quality product, 😭
Hatten in Flames is a quality MMP product.

Red October is not done and tested, very little play test would have revealed that it is not playable.

Red Barricades is old Avalon Hill quality product.

Red Factory module is missing about a half counter sheet instead a useless purple coloured half counter sheet was included instead.
 

dr dull

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Well lets hope that Red October is an exception from the rule, at least the maps look beautiful.
 

Honza

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Fort did playtest the CGs. I wonder if there is some trick to playing the Russians in CG2.
 

FrankJ

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Fort did playtest the CGs. I wonder if there is some trick to playing the Russians in CG2.
I think we need to carefully consider the victory conditions. The Germans have 5 scenarios to capture all bu 10 location. How can the Russians delay the Germans long enough to win the game? Fortifications, infantry and artillery seem to be the key, with very little margin for error. Like the "300" holding the line.

For the initial scenario, I would consider buying 2 Russian first lines in reserve, 2 Art. modules, and 2 point of fortifications. I would like to have a lot of hidden surprises to slow down the Germans, as was historical.

If the CG is in fact unbalanced when played by players of equal ability, then possibly tweeking the German or Russian OB's, Points, CG duration, VP's, the list goes on.
 
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Tater

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I think we need to carefully consider the victory conditions. The Germans have 5 scenarios to capture all bu 10 location. How can the Russians delay the Germans long enough to win the game? Fortifications, infantry and artillery seem to be the key, with very little margin for error. Like the "300" holding the line.
The “300” occupied a natural choke point that reduced the amount of man power the Persians could put at the point of attack...not the case here.

For the initial scenario, I would consider buying 2 Russian first lines in reserve, 2 Art. modules, and 2 point of fortifications. I would like to have a lot of hidden surprises to slow down the Germans, as was historical.
If you look at the AAR, what hampered the Nazis was mostly their own lack of coordination and what sounds like a bombardment hitting their schwerpunket at almost the exact moment the assault was to start.

If the CG is in fact unbalanced when played by players of equal ability, then possibly tweeking the German or Russian OB's, Points, CG duration, VP's, the list goes on.
The problem with the fortifications is that you got to have terrain to tie them to for funneling the enemy...the Reds do not control any of the restrictive (choke) points on the map. AP mines are to expensive for the broad front the Ruski has to cover...the 85FPP the Reds start with would net 4 minefields...even if the commies maxed FPP (245) that still nets 13 minefields...on a map that is 35 hexes long. And that requires a total sellout for forts.

The only chance I see is to counter attack where the Nazis aren’t...but with so much infantry at their disposal, there is no where they can’t cover...in strength.
 

Eagle4ty

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The “300” occupied a natural choke point that reduced the amount of man power the Persians could put at the point of attack...not the case here.



If you look at the AAR, what hampered the Nazis was mostly their own lack of coordination and what sounds like a bombardment hitting their schwerpunket at almost the exact moment the assault was to start.



The problem with the fortifications is that you got to have terrain to tie them to for funneling the enemy...the Reds do not control any of the restrictive (choke) points on the map. AP mines are to expensive for the broad front the Ruski has to cover...the 85FPP the Reds start with would net 4 minefields...even if the commies maxed FPP (245) that still nets 13 minefields...on a map that is 35 hexes long. And that requires a total sellout for forts.

The only chance I see is to counter attack where the Nazis aren’t...but with so much infantry at their disposal, there is no where they can’t cover...in strength.
Not to mention, if the Germans start two big force groupings, one on each flank, they can almost forget their center and concentrate on killing their eastern foe and crush the Soviets flanks to isolate all forces on map. So what if the Russkies counterattack in the center! What do they have to gain? Once their flanks are busted the Germans can form a large pocket and it's Cannea all over again. Cut off from friendly board edges and pressed against the Volga, or worse Germans in their rear, it's just a matter of time and the factory locations will fall like ripe plums to the Germans there for the taking. As much as I was looking forward to this HASL it is a serious disappointment as a CG as well as most of the scenarios. (Love the maps though!)
 

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Dade gave his thoughts through multiple blogs here: http://dadecariaga.blogspot.com/?m=1

I don’t remember if my Facebook comments were captured in his blog comments but there was a big discussion on this a while ago.
 

STAVKA

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... I would like to have a lot of hidden surprises to slow down the Germans, as was historical.
If the CG is in fact unbalanced when played by players of equal ability, then possibly tweeking the German ...
The Martinovski never fell during the historical Operation Hubertus.

Delete 3 German Coy would be a Good tweeking start and redo the VCs I think is needed.
 

Honza

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As much as I was looking forward to this HASL it is a serious disappointment as a CG as well as most of the scenarios. (Love the maps though!)
Perhaps to fully enjoy it one needs to DYO CGs.
 

Honza

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I think we need to carefully consider the victory conditions. The Germans have 5 scenarios to capture all bu 10 location. How can the Russians delay the Germans long enough to win the game? Fortifications, infantry and artillery seem to be the key, with very little margin for error. Like the "300" holding the line.

For the initial scenario, I would consider buying 2 Russian first lines in reserve, 2 Art. modules, and 2 point of fortifications. I would like to have a lot of hidden surprises to slow down the Germans, as was historical.

If the CG is in fact unbalanced when played by players of equal ability, then possibly tweeking the German or Russian OB's, Points, CG duration, VP's, the list goes on.
That is how I read it. The Germans greatest weakness is time.
 

STAVKA

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I think Fort knew what he was doing with these RO CGs and set us a puzzle to solve.
He have clearly not playtested any of the 3 CGs, not even the small scenario
RO1 Blood On Tracks haven been tested.
 

Craig Benn

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Honza,

No offense but I don't think you've played this CG and Red Barricades solo isn't the same. If you'd played against a competitive german opponent then you'd appreciate their advantages. Even 1:1 the Germans setting up second so choosing the Schwerpunkt AND their firepower, leadership and troop quality advantages gives them an edge.

But it's not 1:1 - it's over 2:1 - more like 2.5 to1 at start and the Russians have a long irregular perimeter.

The points being made are all very theoretical. Of course the Russians have to use infantry, artillery and fortifications. Statement of the bleedin obvious. But they don't get enough points and its not enough. Time isn't the greatest enemy of the Germans. 5 dates is more than enough time to clear the map entirely in my opinion.

It's not a clever puzzle by Fort. That's a completely wrong analogy. To be balanced (and I accept nothing is perfectly balanced) both sides should be able to go in cold and have a chance of winning if they are of equal quality. It should be a puzzle for both sides if it's a puzzle at all. But it's not a puzzle for the Germans at all - it's dead easy. It's not balanced if a top player can have a chance with the Russians with inventive strategies and optimum play against an average player.

I can't say its unbalanced with absolute certainty. We wont know until we have a statistically significant number of playings on ROAR. But it looks like it - CGII - is.

I suspect that the problem is that the CG is too historically accurate. But ASL doesn't model reality very well - understating the attackers problems in city fights by a large margin. As well as German troop quality viz Russians.
 

Honza

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I can see the imbalance that you are talking about. But I would say that in the initial scenario the Russian can muster 4 coy on map and 1 in reserve, or 3 coy on map and 3 in reserve. That is 5 or 6 coy vs the German at start 7 coy. The Germans can purchase a further 1 coy on map or two to enter or in reserve. Any German coy that have to enter are out of the scenario until possibly very late in the scenario because they have to cross the width of the map.

So basically it is 5 or 6 Russian coy vs the German 7 or 8 German coy. Which is about 2:3 or 1:1.5. Further more the German infantry are expensive while the Russians are cheap. So in the subsequent scenarios the Russian will be gaining squad numbers while the German will be losing them.

I am curiously awaiting the results of several playings of this CG to see if the Russian can pull out any wins.
 
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