RO CG I Started

jrv

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So what effect do the map-edge hexes have?

Per O11.6053 the map-edge markes are at least placed along the shore line:
"...This map-edge (Alternate) Hex Grain may even go “around the corner(s)”, and along Shore Hexes, of the map if necessary (and therefore change from a normal to an Alternate Hex Grain, or vice-versa)..."
Map edge hexes seem to determine whether an area is a pocket or not. O11.6058, "If the process of expanding a Pocket adds a friendly map-edge hex to a Pocket, that section of the Perimeter area ceases to be a Pocket and is considered to be a “normal” section of Perimeter Area (i.e., as if it had been marked out in RePh step 11.6054)". Per O11.6056, "All Pockets are Isolated Areas."

According to O11.2, there are several sorts of strategic locations, including each "non-Water-Obstacle map-edge hex" and each "Shore hex," which seems to say that shore hexes are not the same as non-water-obstacle map-edge hexes (although, perhaps confusingly, some individual hexes might be a member of both sets). The fact that the Map-Edge Markers can be traced through Shore Hexes, but that doesn't make Shore Hexes into map-edge hexes (nor make map-edge hexes into Shore Hexes).

There is one seeming problem. Again per O11.2 an Isolated Location is a "Location that lies within the Perimeter Area of both sides." If on the Red Barricades map the Germans controlled all the map-edge hexes and the Soviets controlled all the non-map-edge shore hexes, I can't see any way the Germans could construct a Perimeter that contained whatever Pocket the Soviet player generated. There is no way to draw a perimeter line from JJ18 into the water and on to DD0. Thus per O11.6056 the Soviet area would be a Pocket, but the Locations in it would not meet the O11.2 definition of Isolated Location. I lean toward such an area being a Pocket and Isolated, and the O11.2 definition of "Isolated Location" is just not sufficiently robust.

My read: a Pocket that contains shore hexes but no non-water-obstacle map-edge hexes remains a Pocket even if it ísn't in the both Perimeter Areas (i.e. it does not meet the O11.2 definition of "Isolated Location"). It is isolated, and newly-purchased RGs may not set up in it. If on the RO map the Germans control all map-edge hexes, the Soviets could bring on Infantry and Gun RGs into south-edge land hexes ≥ hexrow M per CG9.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Map edge hexes seem to determine whether an area is a pocket or not. O11.6058, "If the process of expanding a Pocket adds a friendly map-edge hex to a Pocket, that section of the Perimeter area ceases to be a Pocket and is considered to be a “normal” section of Perimeter Area (i.e., as if it had been marked out in RePh step 11.6054)". Per O11.6056, "All Pockets are Isolated Areas."
On the other hand, O11.6056 says:
"However a Pocket can never include any Location that was enclosed in the friendly Perimeter Area during RePh step 11.6054," - would that not include the Perimeter Markers along the shore hexes?

I wonder if this is different in VotG - where there are Ferry Landings...

EDIT: found this old official Q&A:

O11.6057 If a German Perimeter Area contains
no map-edge hex along the north/west edge of the
map, is that Perimeter Area a Pocket?
A. Yes, even if it does contain >= one map-edge
hex along the east/south edge. Conversely, the
same is true of a Russian Perimeter Area that
contains no map-edge hex along the east/south
edge.
[An92; An95w; An96]
 

Honza

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The logical argument for and against the Russians being isolated gets very complicated. We would need to go back to the designers and ask them how they see it.
 

jrv

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On the other hand, O11.6056 says:
"However a Pocket can never include any Location that was enclosed in the friendly Perimeter Area during RePh step 11.6054," - would that not include the Perimeter Markers along the shore hexes?
If the Soviets only controlled non-map edge shore hexes, they would have nothing to do in O11.6054 because they would never have added map-edge markers in O11.6053, again assuming non-map-edge shore markers are not map-edge markers (which, as written, is obvious) or treated like them. As far as I can tell, when generating map-edge marker pairs in O11.6053, you can trace the pairing through controlled shore hexes but cannot use a non-map-edge shore hex as a starting point for a pair.

I wonder if this is different in VotG - where there are Ferry Landings...
Yes, per VotG CG12: "This Russian [sic; should be Soviet] player may treat a friendly-Controlled, non-interdicted Ferry Landing as a friendly map-edge (12.6063). This allows the Russian [sic] player to trace supply though it and purchase on-map/Reserve RG, even when no friendly north/south map-edge hexes exist."

This argues in favor of ordinary non-map-edge shore hexes not being sufficient to turn a Pocket into main perimeter.

EDIT: found this old official Q&A:

O11.6057 If a German Perimeter Area contains
no map-edge hex along the north/west edge of the
map, is that Perimeter Area a Pocket?
A. Yes, even if it does contain >= one map-edge
hex along the east/south edge. Conversely, the
same is true of a Russian Perimeter Area that
contains no map-edge hex along the east/south
edge.
[An92; An95w; An96]
I saw this q&a but I didn't think it helpful in determining whether a shore hex is treated as a map-edge hex.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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I saw this q&a but I didn't think it helpful in determining whether a shore hex is treated as a map-edge hex.
No, but it does help defining what is a Pocket - which seems to involve map-edge hexes. Anyway, IIRC, a Q&A has been sent to MMP on the matter.
 

Honza

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Perry confirmed that they have received the question. The answer is probably not very obvious and they need to consult with each other.
 

Den589

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Steve has finally conceded this CG to me and this thread can die. The squad ratio at the end was 120 Russians to 65 German on board. That being said we would both rather have the German in this CG, we both think that Steve was too cautious that first day and that an aggressive attack by the German will put the German in a good position to win the CG most of the time.

I had pretty good luck (except on leader rolls which sucked) and still struggled at times to stop the Germans.

We are now on to Dinant.
 
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