Right of Inspection

DougRim

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Some players implement the "No Right of Inspection" rules (A2.9 and A12.16) by adding a HIPped "?" counter below the top counter of a stack. This has the effect of (a) leaving the top counter unconcealed, (b) concealing all the counters below the top one, and (c) without increasing the number of visible counters in the stack.

This seems to me to be an entirely workable way of implementing the rule and preventing inadvertently scrolling over a stack and having its contents pop up in the Hex Viewer when they should not be known to the opponent.

Workable but perhaps a bit laborious. I have been asked if I could implement an automated approach.

Here are my first thoughts about how to do it. Quite doable from a coding perspective but I would like to make sure the game mechanics would be helpful . . .

1. Add a version of each nationalities' ? counter to the "?" Panel for that nationality, replacing the "7 Morale" text with "No ROI". Players could drag-drop it onto stacks, position it and HIP it. No real change from current situation. So in addition to that:

2. Add a "Add ROI" menu item to virtually every unit/gun/veh in the game (this is very easy to do).

3. The item would have a submenu of two items "This stack" and "All Friendly stacks".

4. When wishing to apply No ROI, players would right-click on the top counter of a stack regardless of the type of counter (EXC: information and terrain counters) and select one of the "Add ROI" options.

5. These two items would do four things following that selection with no further clicks required: (a) create the No ROI counter at the top of the stack; (b) select the counter and move it down one counter in the stack; (c) HIP the counter; and (4) conceal all units below the No ROI counter. If the "All Friendly stacks" item was chosen, it would iterate through all the stacks on the map, looking for those "owned" by the player and comprising two or more counters. It should probably test for ? stacks and ignore them.

6. The NoROI counter would have a menu item "Remove No ROI" and two sub options, "This stack" and "All Friendly Stacks", which would delete the "No ROI" counter from one or all friendly stacks, thereby removing the ? from the counters below it.

This would give players the flexibility to just No ROI a couple of stacks one by one or to No ROI everyone and then undo some individually as necessary. It would not change the visible appearance of a non-extended stack.

What do you think?

A12.16 begins: "If a stack is not concealed after play begins (2.9), the opposing player may inspect its contents - unless the stack is out of the LOS of all of his Good Order ground units, . . . ". My read is that nothing in the rules permits a free LOS check for No ROI removal so an automated test along the lines of HIP Fortification is not appropriate here. Do I have this right?

Any suggestions for improvement? I should be able to get this into 6.6.9 if would be helpful.
 

Sparafucil3

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It's your work so I defer to you, but IMO, this is a solution without a problem. HIP'ing the extra counter isn't that much more work on the players part, and from what I can tell, what you're proposing isn't saving much work, if any.

Having said that, implement away. I will continue to use a HIP ? counter just like I always have.

Now, if you want to work on a true information leak, then work on Concealed AFV. When concealed, an AFV's VCA always aligns the same way and it is VERY obvious which way a concealed AFV is pointing it's VCA. It becomes trivial to identify dummy AFV is the VCA is pointing off in an obviously bad direction. -- jim
 

apbills

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It becomes trivial to identify dummy AFV is the VCA is pointing off in an obviously bad direction. -- jim
You may rotate a dummy 5/8" counter just like a real 5/8" counter. Just don't "point" it in a bad direction. How many and which ones are real?
29790
 

apbills

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As for the OP...

I can see the desire for such a function. As Jim has pointed out, it will not be less effort on the part of a player, although it will prevent the roll-over reveal (RoR) issues with VASL vs ftf play. Regardless of implementation, I can see it will help with understanding certain concepts, such as ownership, which can lead to other desirable functionality such as the stalled look at armor leaders.
 

PresterJohn

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Perhaps if it was easy to have a "one click to remove" for all of the hidden "x-ray blockers" once the game had started. Or have the hidden counter removed automatically when a regular concealment marker was placed on the stack. That would be a "nice to have" to help with the cleanup after the turn starts.
 

DougRim

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I am not sure that being able to add such a counter to 5, 10 or 20 stacks with two mouse click is the same work as having to drag a counter into place, hip it and then move it down in the stack, and repeat again for each of those 5, 10, or 20 stacks.
 

PresterJohn

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I imagine that to impliment Counter Hover Inspection Prevention status (CHIPs) a player would set up his counters then, using a single motion of the the mouse, highlight a large area on the map containing many stacks and select CHIPs from the little orange grenadier button. Job done.
 

Sparafucil3

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You may rotate a dummy 5/8" counter just like a real 5/8" counter. Just don't "point" it in a bad direction. How many and which ones are real?
View attachment 29790
I know this. I do this all the time. Not everyone else does. When I play new people, I make sure to tell them this so they don't unknowingly leak information themselves. -- jim
 

Will Fleming

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I am not sure if this would be possible, but a text notification when an opponent inspects a stack would be nice. Any time they double click it or hover over it to expand it.

It would be really slick if the owner of the stack got a popup or similar asking for permission before the opponent could see them.

The second comment would be a PITA for PBeM, so perhaps a way to have the owner disable it, similar to allowing an opponent to un-conceal my stacks.
 

apbills

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I know this. I do this all the time. Not everyone else does. When I play new people, I make sure to tell them this so they don't unknowingly leak information themselves. -- jim
I am confused, what is the information leak you wanted to be worked?
 

DougRim

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I imagine that to impliment Counter Hover Inspection Prevention status (CHIPs) a player would set up his counters then, using a single motion of the the mouse, highlight a large area on the map containing many stacks and select CHIPs from the little orange grenadier button. Job done.
Or you just select the Disable preference under General.
 

bprobst

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Now, if you want to work on a true information leak, then work on Concealed AFV. When concealed, an AFV's VCA always aligns the same way and it is VERY obvious which way a concealed AFV is pointing it's VCA. It becomes trivial to identify dummy AFV is the VCA is pointing off in an obviously bad direction.
Not sure what you're complaining about? In a ftf game with real counters, it should be VERY OBVIOUS which direction the counter is pointing (well, one of two possibilities, but in most cases it's a safe assumption that the counter is not set up "backwards"). VASL should not attempt to "fix" things that aren't broken, particularly when the "fix" would alter the game rules.

If you don't like that the CA of a concealed 5/8" counter is very easy to guess, I'd recommend that you correspond with MMP and ask them to amend the rulebook accordingly. (C3.2 would be the applicable rule, I believe.) Good luck with that.
 

Sparafucil3

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Not sure what you're complaining about? In a ftf game with real counters, it should be VERY OBVIOUS which direction the counter is pointing (well, one of two possibilities, but in most cases it's a safe assumption that the counter is not set up "backwards"). VASL should not attempt to "fix" things that aren't broken, particularly when the "fix" would alter the game rules.
With real counters, you can't pick up the top counter to see what's underneath. In VASL, you can effectively pick up the top counter and see which way the bottom counter is pointing. Knowing that the ACTUAL REAL VASL counter always has the VCA pointing to the "e" in Morale can allow you to determine which are probably real and which are not. At the table top, You cannot see the "e". You can see very little of the counter under the uppermost Concealment counter. It's the obvious alignment of the VCA to the "e" which leaks information. You can know with 100% certainty which way the VCA is facing if the counter underneath is real.

Next time you're on VASL try it. Have your opponent conceal some vehicles and then rotate the AFV. See if you can determine VCA by seeing which way the "e" points. -- jim

PS: I know the game rules as well as anyone. If this were about game rules, I wouldn't be commenting on it. But this isn't about a game rule. It's about the fact that VASL makes it very easy to determine with 100% accuracy, which way a Concealed VCA is facing. The same for a Gun (imagine if that wasn't emplaced at startup and thus not HIP). The active VCA/CA always points to the "e" in Morale on the lower counter. ALWAYS.
 

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You may rotate a dummy 5/8" counter just like a real 5/8" counter. Just don't "point" it in a bad direction. How many and which ones are real?
View attachment 29790
I can't see the undermost counter. What I can tell you is IF it is REAL, the CA is always pointing at the letter "e". Now, imagine a game in which your Guns don't setup Emplaced. As such, they are not HIP. Do you think it helpful for me to know with 100% certainty which way your Gun is facing? Imagine you have only TDs. Again, I know exactly which way your TD is facing. And if your opponent doesn't rotate the counters underneath to a "facing", it can become very obvious which are Dummies and which are not.

Some if this is about educating people to rotate their Dummies to a realistic direction. Some of this is about educating other players that this happens so people are aware. -- jim

EDIT: Your example, which interesting, lacks the context of game. In a game, the direction of enemy approach has to be considered. A counter obviously facing in the wrong direction would likely be a Dummy.
 

hongkongwargamer

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I can't see the undermost counter. What I can tell you is IF it is REAL, the CA is always pointing at the letter "e". Now, imagine a game in which your Guns don't setup Emplaced. As such, they are not HIP. Do you think it helpful for me to know with 100% certainty which way your Gun is facing? Imagine you have only TDs. Again, I know exactly which way your TD is facing. And if your opponent doesn't rotate the counters underneath to a "facing", it can become very obvious which are Dummies and which are not.

Some if this is about educating people to rotate their Dummies to a realistic direction. Some of this is about educating other players that this happens so people are aware. -- jim

EDIT: Your example, which interesting, lacks the context of game. In a game, the direction of enemy approach has to be considered. A counter obviously facing in the wrong direction would likely be a Dummy.
Is 'not rotating' the dummy AFV a people oversight issue, or an issue that software can fix?

Make all conceal stacks look like they face the same way when in fact they don't and you can't see the real counter facing until you unconceal?
 

Sparafucil3

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You may rotate a dummy 5/8" counter just like a real 5/8" counter. Just don't "point" it in a bad direction. How many and which ones are real?
Lets put this into a game context.

29796

I am only showing the bottom-most counter which can be seen by hovering or expanding the stack. Imagine the enemy is coming from the right. Can you guess which one is likely to be real? How often is the unit in I6 likely to every be real? Now the enemy is coming from the left. Which one is most likely to be real? Remember, the CA/VCA of a concealed counter ALWAYS points to the letter "e". ALWAYS. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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Is 'not rotating' the dummy AFV a people oversight issue, or an issue that software can fix?
Definitely a people issue on some level. It is also a software issue on some level. At the table, you are down to a 50:50 flip on which way it is facing. As Bruce correctly points out, it must be oriented properly on the map. In VASL it is 100% certain which way it it pointing once you see the "e". Then it depends on the context to determine how meaningful the certainty is. You don't even have to click on the stack. Notice here you can see the "7" of the underlying counter. Now you know where the "e" is, even though you can't really see it. Ergo, the information is leaked.

29797

Make all conceal stacks look like they face the same way when in fact they don't and you can't see the real counter facing until you unconceal?
This isn't in the rules. The Concealed counter must be placed properly. You could do this amongst consenting adults though. -- jim
 
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