Right-Click, Menu Opens. 'Bout time. Steve "Hotskis"

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
#2
Unread Today, 06:24 PM
Battlefront.com Battlefront.com is offline
Administrator

Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 19,427
Default
Heh

I personally use the FPS camera settings. I started to use it simply because, well, I was the one who was designing it so I should try playing with it! There's still a few things I miss about the old system, and a few quirks that are unavoidable given this isn't a FPS game, but overall I really like it. There's some neat tricks you can do that can't be done in the other modes.

Oh, and I think it's not mentioned anywhere yet... right clicking on a unit will bring up the graphical Commands menus (like Spacebar). I don't find it particularly useful because I'm a hotkeys kinda guy, but I do use it sometimes.

Steve
Steve "Hotskeys". That's a cool name.
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Uh-Oh...I sense a Steve Hotskis tirade coming!!! Can a Bad Analogy be far off????

The point of the Simpson episode reference is that every single one of you guys thinks you know how to make a perfect UI for this particular game. But if left in charge of the UI design it is extremely doubtful that you'd come up with anything that is overall better. And that's if you were kept on a short creative leash, had 8 years of gameplay hindsight, and a big budget. If you were given a fresh game concept, no hindsight, and a modest budget I'm not sure the result would be even as good a the original CMSF UI was.

I know that most gamers think they can make a better game than successful game developers, just as most movie and TV viewers think they can make better movies and TV shows than successful movie and TV producers (I "know" I could run circles around JJ Abrams ) Out of the few who try, most fail because they don't have what it takes. Just a hunch which anybody is welcome to disprove by making their own ground breaking game

For sure we got some design elements wrong. The relative key concept was good in theory, but because CM has so many Commands it did not work well in reality. We realized that a long time ago and have been doing nothing to reinforce it. Instead, we've been moving away from it over time. As unbelievable as it might sound, you guys have demanded thousands of things from us over the years and you have claimed they should all be in the game already. And that means that we can not afford to focus on fixing/improving any one particular part of the game. You guys would punish us very hard if we did that.

And then there's the other side of the coin...

The UI is not as bad as the worst of the critics claim it is. Many customers, including some in this thread, have said they don't have a problem with the UI. And that's not surprising because if I got 10 Wargamers together and asked them a single yes/no question I'd get about 543 answers. Most of them in conflict with each other, even when coming from the same person. You are, if nothing else, a predictable lot.

So we have a situation where CM doesn't have any single thing done perfectly. The degree in which an individual rates any one specific element ranges dramatically. The important thing is that customers find the total package to their liking. And as much as the complainers go on and on and on about something... they are here going on and on and on about it. That tells us all we need to know and then some

Steve
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Yep, bleh-bleh-bleh. I sense a game release...mebbe not this weekend.

To reiterate...

Each release has a number of UI improvements. Some have been requested since CMBO days, some since CMSF, some more recently. We try very hard to incorporate the features people seem to want/need most as opposed to those which aren't fundamentally necessary or are potentially harmful. It's not worth spending our limited development time on stuff that most people will disable or complain about. Obviously it's a judgement call as to which ones are what, but that's why we are here.

UI improvements are kept in balance with other aspects of the game. Especially those which are central to gameplay. Keep in mind that UI improvements can only enhance what the game already does. It is incapable of offering anything new. For example, having tank riders or flamethrowers. If we put it to a vote, I'm sure the vast majority of customers would rather us spend time on adding flamethrowers than mouse tool tips.

Development priorities suck for us as much as they do for you. Just be thankful we're obviously quite good at it. Otherwise you'd not be here and we'd be making Pokemon games for iPads. You know, stuff that could actually make us some real money

Steve
I disagree. UI enhancements can increase sales. UI enhancements can make you money. UI enhancements can broaden your market appeal. Being a blow-hard doesn't do anything but insult the CM (Captive Market) audience.
 
Last edited:

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
I don't know what to make of this ramble. At least he isn't tripping off into some 'Zen' rap. But I think even Mr. Hotskis would admit that a demo that has a current state of the art UI might be worthwhile... But, as far as a paradigm, people dig their own pits sometimes.


The base won't grow because of better UI. It will grow only if we dumb down the gameplay and increase the bling. Sorry, I wish it could be otherwise but that's the reality we live in. CM is in a niche market for reasons that have nothing to do with the UI.

With that in mind, it is more important for the game's UI to function well within CM's own unique paradigm than it does to work not-well but be familiar to non CM players.

For sure there are areas where it doesn't have to be a choice. Those are the sorts of things we are working on addressing. But at the end of the day, CM's UI will retain things that people don't like. All games have them. And here's an example why...
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
It seems the right-click is only in the RTS mode? And I am not loving the RTS mode either.
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Interesting!

#8
Unread Today, 01:33 AM
Battlefront.com Battlefront.com is offline
Administrator

Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 19,484
Default
For FPS mode think of how things work in a FPS game. Use keys to set primary direction of travel and use the mouse to finetune. You can easily navigate right to the spot in a single fluid motion. Or you can use the keys alone as you do in Standard mode or use left mouse button an mouse motion on their own as you do now. The real benefit of the system is when you use both together.

There's also a bunch of really super cool motions you can do by using things like holding down forward and side movement keys and the mouse. You can, for example, spin the camera from a point (looking out) or spin the camera around a point (looking in). Adjusting camera pitch is camera height is also pretty fluid compared to Standard keys.

Here's what I recommend doing. Set it to FPS camera, go into the Editor, load any scenario, then into 3D Preview (you won't get spoiler info that way). Give it a shot and see what you think of it.

Personally, I use FPS mode now exclusively. I started using it when I was designing the functionality and grew used to it. Though I still think the Standard behavior is nearly as functional and, in some ways, cleaner for most styles of play. Especially WeGo. But I am a RT player and do find FPS slightly better for my play style.

BTW, double clicking on the map jumps the camera to that position. I'm pretty sure this is the first release with that behavior.

Steve
So. He is now certifiable. I won't gloat. That would be bad form.
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Perhaps some MD levity? I have no idea what he is talking about....

Does killing my own count?

I recall one of the features that was being talked up was the reporting of friendly casualties. They do seem to get reported, but they don't seem to persist. I was under the impression that you could review you OOB at the end of the game and take a count of losses, but there is no real difference as far as this goes. Casualties disappear from the map and interface just as they did before. The only difference I can spot is that they are reported as "casualty" in bright red letters temporarily in addition to their weapon/status changing to yellow. Unless I have configured my options incorrectly?
My 'Options'...are limited.
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Supposedly, (ATS...According To Steve), the right-click menu 'feature' is supposed to be for all three modes (Standard, FPS and RTS). But it seems to be only for FPS and RTS). I think the manual even states as such. and, supposedly, Steve was involved with the manual. There are also other issues with editing the modes with Hotkeys. No worries, Steve is a Hotskeys kind of guy and will get it fixed.

I haven't seen any major problems with the game but the manual, and documentation, such as "what did we do to the game", is lacking.
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
I haven't seen any major problems with the game but the manual, and documentation, such as "what did we do to the game", is lacking.
Yeah. The whole setup looks to me like BFC wants players to move more into the direction of treating the whole game as a black box mechanics wise, then go into real-time play and forget about the details.

Any combat result oddities (unrealisms) from getting the short end of not being a PhD in action spot mechanics should even out over the course of a game.

Except that I don't agree with this view at all because it is not high level enough and you don't have enough units to control. The loss of a single AT gun from an unrealistic game oddity can and will make a significant difference for the whole game.

If they wanted that to be the base of gameplay and actually have things work out statistically we would need larger forces and useful formation commands to manage them.
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Managing the larger forces, or even moderate sized forces, on a larger map, is my biggest learning curve. Or the cause of me hitting Alt-Q. I suppose the "double-click" on the map gets you around, sort of a jump map feature, and I could bother to learn the other old features that 'memorize'(?) camera views or whatever, but I do get the feeling that platoon command, especially for the Soviets, would be helpful. Especially if I ever played realtime. Basically, I would want to double-click on a platoon, and give it an objective. Or give it a formation.

Is it just me or do some of the Panzer Command camera 'feel' come through these new modes?
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
Managing the larger forces, or even moderate sized forces, on a larger map, is my biggest learning curve. Or the cause of me hitting Alt-Q. I suppose the "double-click" on the map gets you around, sort of a jump map feature, and I could bother to learn the other old features that 'memorize'(?) camera views or whatever, but I do get the feeling that platoon command, especially for the Soviets, would be helpful. Especially if I ever played realtime. Basically, I would want to double-click on a platoon, and give it an objective. Or give it a formation.

Is it just me or do some of the Panzer Command camera 'feel' come through these new modes?
I have very bad memory. I can't easily check out different setups.

This whole thing with their tabbed commands, messy hotkey setup, different things everywhere is turning into a problem for my game enjoyment.

Not to mention yes formation commands or objectives to give would be nice. CMx1 was an efficient wargame. CMx2 is not.
 

dalem

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
62
Location
Columbia Heights, MN
Country
llUnited States
What kind of forum tolerates this?

-dale
=============================================



03 Apr 14, 17:42
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
03 Apr 14, 18:18
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
03 Apr 14, 18:19
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
04 Apr 14, 10:38 #4
Elvis
Elvis is offline
Forum Guardian Elvis's Avatar

Join Date
Mar 2009
Location
Pennsylvania
Posts
2,838

Re: Right-Click, Menu Opens. 'Bout time. Steve "Hotskis"

Quote Originally Posted by NUTTERNAME View Post
I sense a game release...mebbe not this weekend.
You are 100% correct about this.

Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Blog this Post
04 Apr 14, 10:41
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
04 Apr 14, 11:45
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
04 Apr 14, 14:28 #7
Redwolf
Redwolf is offline
Member # 3665 Redwolf's Avatar

Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
MA, USA
Posts
5,684

Re: Right-Click, Menu Opens. 'Bout time. Steve "Hotskis"

Quote Originally Posted by NUTTERNAME View Post
Yep, bleh-bleh-bleh. I sense a game release...mebbe not this weekend.
It is released to preorder people.

Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Blog this Post
04 Apr 14, 15:53
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
05 Apr 14, 02:17
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

View Post
05 Apr 14, 02:39
NUTTERNAME

Forum Commando
This message is hidden because NUTTERNAME is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list
 

NUTTERNAME

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
1,943
Reaction score
41
Location
N
Country
llVietnam
Forum Commando
This message is hidden because dale-um is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list
 
Top