Residuals, Tight Spot Defence

bluedogpete

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Hoping you can throw some light on the following tight spot circumstance:

All attacks/defence take place in Buildings hexes.
The German stack of 3 x 4-6-7, LMG and 9-2 Leader fires PBF on the Russians in the adjacent hex to the right.
Giving a modified FP of 30, with IFT results of all 3 Russian units breaking.

1 [Rule A8.2]
Which Residual value would be appropriate? The modified FP of 30 giving a Residual FP of 12; or the unmodified FP of the German units of 15 resulting in a Residual FP of 6

2 [Rule A8.26]
Even though the Russians are moving in a Buildings hex, would there be no adjustment for calculation of Residual FP on the IFT columns for a TEM +3?

3 [Rule A8.3]
As the Russians used 2 MF to enter the adjacent buildings hex, can the Germans immediately fire again on the broken units using Subsequent First Fire (SFF)?

4 [Rule A8.3]
The German stack faces another 3 additional squads of Russians from the left adjacent hex. Will their previous First Fire on the broken units prevent them from taking Subsequent First Fire (SFF) on the unbroken enemy that has just arrived?

Thanks in advance for comments.

Pete
 

jrv

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The FP used to calculate the residual is the maximum FP used in the attack, no matter how modified. In this case you use twelve FP residual. If the stack had contained a mix of concealed and unconcealed units, the residual would still be twelve FP based on the maximum FP. If the Soviets had all been concealed, the maximum FP used in the attack would have been fifteen, so the residual would have been six FP.

TEM(/in-hex SMOKE) applies against attacks the residual FP makes. It does not reduce the residual FP strength.

The Germans may fire again on the second MF spent.

If there are Soviet units at range one (and none at range zero), the Germans may fire using SFF at range one or zero.

JR
 

jrv

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BTW, the better way for the Soviets to move is to enter one-at-a-time rather than in a stack. The first unit takes the initial attack, while the units following take only the residual FP (and SFF etc). Even moving together with a super-great leader would not be better than split up.

JR
 

Philippe D.

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BTW, the better way for the Soviets to move is to enter one-at-a-time rather than in a stack. The first unit takes the initial attack, while the units following take only the residual FP (and SFF etc). Even moving together with a super-great leader would not be better than split up.
That seems to be correct in most situations, but if, say, the Soviets absolutely need all three squads to survive (say, because it's the last turn and the only way they can win is if they manage to exit all three squads this turn), it might be better to enter all together - that way, if the single attack (or, more likely, two attacks, since there will also be SFF or FF) rolls high enough, they all pass. Entering one at a time, even vs weaker attacks, gives the defender several shots, which means several chances of a good DR. The details would, of course, depend on specifics (morale of the moving units, for instance - my guess being that, the lower their morale, the more their best chance is to hope for a single, high enough attack DR).
 

Robin Reeve

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Moving in stacks is dangerous most of the times.
Moving into a Location where a 30 FP attack can happen is dangerous too.
Moving as a stack in such a Location is very dangerous.
As always, there are exceptions to usually sound tactics.
But in that case, it must be a rather desperate situation to take the risk.
 

bluedogpete

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Thanks JR for a speedy and succinct response.

Sorry to be pedantic. To clarify, so A8.26 relates to Residual FP attacks (and TEM modifiers), rather than in calculating Residual values.

Re the Germans firing again - is this limited only to the broken Russian units?
Or can they use their SFF on the new approaching enemy?
In other words, is it only permitted on "...the closest armed, Known enemy unit..." which is initially the broken Russian units?

Thanks for your tip of sending squads one at a time... makes a lot of sense... and I've notice that there appears to be a fair amount of sacrificing units to make progress in ASL.

Pete
 

jrv

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That seems to be correct in most situations, but if, say, the Soviets absolutely need all three squads to survive (say, because it's the last turn and the only way they can win is if they manage to exit all three squads this turn), it might be better to enter all together - that way, if the single attack (or, more likely, two attacks, since there will also be SFF or FF) rolls high enough, they all pass. Entering one at a time, even vs weaker attacks, gives the defender several shots, which means several chances of a good DR. The details would, of course, depend on specifics (morale of the moving units, for instance - my guess being that, the lower their morale, the more their best chance is to hope for a single, high enough attack DR).
I am going to do this without calculating the odds, so it may be wrong, but in the given case, the first group in will face a 30 FP up 3 (assume assault move). If the defender rolls a seven, that's a 2MC for all units in one case or for only one unit in the other. I have to think at least one unit in a stack of three (or four if a 10-3 leader is moving with) fails a two MC. It's also fairly likely that a single unit fails, but I think it is more likely that at least one of the three fails than the single unit fails. The twelve FP up three residual and/or SFF/FPF is nothing compared to taking the thirty FP up three. Even if they enter as a stack, the stack can be attacked again as SFF, so multiple attacks apply to the stack case too.

JR
 
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jrv

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Sorry to be pedantic. To clarify, so A8.26 relates to Residual FP attacks (and TEM modifiers), rather than in calculating Residual values.
I'm not quite understanding this. A8.26 says residual FP is reduced for positive DRM other than in-hex TEM/SMOKE. Hindrances (other than in-hex SMOKE), hexside TEM and a whole laundry list of other outside DRM (e.g. CX, Stun, CA change, etc.) reduce residual FP. In-hex TEM and SMOKE do not reduce residual FP but are applied as DRM against any attacks that the residual FP makes.

Re the Germans firing again - is this limited only to the broken Russian units?
Or can they use their SFF on the new approaching enemy?
In other words, is it only permitted on "...the closest armed, Known enemy unit..." which is initially the broken Russian units?
Any moving unit that is at range < the closest armed, Known enemy unit may be attacked with SFF. If there is a known unit, possibly broken, at range one and another unit moves to range two, it may not be fired upon using SFF, but if it then moves to range one (or zero), it may be fired on using SFF/FPF.

JR
 

bluedogpete

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Philippe, I hadn't even considered a final mad scramble to win the game. Interesting points to consider.

Swiftandsure, your comments reveal my novice status with ASL. I'm spending more time with my head in the rulebook than looking what I'm doing on screen. The only desperation I had was with trying to move forward with my game while trying to understand the nuances of the rules wording. I thank you for the warnings/advice :)

Thanks again all for the pointers/explanations.
 

bluedogpete

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I'm not quite understanding this. ...residual FP is reduced for positive DRM other than in-hex TEM/SMOKE. ... In-hex TEM and SMOKE do not reduce residual FP but are applied as DRM against any attacks that the residual FP makes.
I think it is me that did not understand, sorry. Not quibbling at all. I now see it as (calculated) Residuals are adjusted by any TEM not in the target hex. But (attacking) Residuals do apply any TEM in the target hex.

Any moving unit that is at range < the closest armed, Known enemy unit may be attacked with SFF. If there is a known unit, possibly broken, at range one and another unit moves to range two, it may not be fired upon using SFF, but if it then moves to range one (or zero), it may be fired on using SFF/FPF.
JR
The units under attack at close range have the option to select who they want to defend against - whether broken or not.
 

Robin Reeve

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Attacking Residual Fire does apply in hex TEM.
That is why in hex TEM doesn't reduce the FP of the Residual Fire beforehand.
The global idea is that RF has no memory of where the attack which created it came from.
That is why DRM such as CX or hexside TEM (e.g. wall), which are linked to the initial attack, affect the FP value of the RF when it is placed.
Say an 8 FP attack leaves 4 FP RF vs. a unit in Open Ground behind a wall. The wall will reduce it to 1 FP.
Another moving unit enters the hex not using Assault Movement.
The 1 FP RF attacks it with -2 DRM (FFMO, FFNAM). The wall (hexside) TEM doesn't apply.
Hope that helped.
 

Brian W

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BTW, if you really wanted to maximize the resid, next time consider declaring a firelane with the LMG. You'll still get 12 resid but will also get a 1fp Firelane, which is doubled to 2fp at PBR, and you may be able to extend it past the building hex if you declare an alternative hex grain fire lane.
 

Eagle4ty

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Thanks JR for a speedy and succinct response.

Sorry to be pedantic. To clarify, so A8.26 relates to Residual FP attacks (and TEM modifiers), rather than in calculating Residual values.

Re the Germans firing again - is this limited only to the broken Russian units?
Or can they use their SFF on the new approaching enemy?
In other words, is it only permitted on "...the closest armed, Known enemy unit..." which is initially the broken Russian units?

Thanks for your tip of sending squads one at a time... makes a lot of sense... and I've notice that there appears to be a fair amount of sacrificing units to make progress in ASL.

Pete
Unfortunately it's not only in ASL; Someone has to go through that door first (It's why the point man was always my hero in a squad).
 

jrv

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BTW, if you really wanted to maximize the resid, next time consider declaring a firelane with the LMG. You'll still get 12 resid but will also get a 1fp Firelane, which is doubled to 2fp at PBR, and you may be able to extend it past the building hex if you declare an alternative hex grain fire lane.
If you fire the firelane, the squad possessing can't SFF. That might be ok or not, depending on the situation. If you are expecting a second moving stack in another hex, it's not necessarily the right choice.

JR
 

bluedogpete

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Thanks all for the detailed explanations, potential implications, hints, tips and warnings. Very helpful, with much that I hadn't even considered.

Appreciating the logical rationale that's ingrained into the rules.

Pete
 

Eagle4ty

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Wait until you try to figure out RFP for Guns/MA fire. It gets a little funky in the feel of it as once a hit has been achieved you would think the RFP is based only upon the FP used to conduct the attack; however you must go back and remember how many hindrances affected (or could have affected) the TH shot to determine the actual RFP placed. It really gets a little weird when you shoot at a target in a stone building hex bordered by a wall. Even though the wall did not effect the shot, to determine the RFP placed in the building, you would have to reduce it two standard columns because the wall could have affected the shot. Another one that feels funky is RFP already placed in say a building hex that you are bypassing. Intuition would tell you that since the moving unit is in the open (most likely) FFMO would apply to the RFP shot. However, as Robin pointed out RFP has no memory so even though you're outside the building, the building TEM would apply to the RFP shot; And since a FFMO cannot exist simultaneously with the application of a TEM it (FFMO) is not taken into account at all.
 
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