Residual on VTT TH/TK?

Justiciar

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The point was the wider one...ie gets to attack in such circumstances...speaking to Eagle4ty's wider point about lethality of the round type.
 

Magpie

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Certainly a lot of inconsistency there.
Perhaps "No LATW can leave residual" is a better ruling?
 

Magpie

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Better for what? It's not as currently written. It would also be inconsistent between Guns firing HEAT and LATW firing HEAT.

JR
Better for our next moon shot .... oh hang on no wait,

Better for a clear on consistent application of the methods by which weapons are employed.

LATW are very much a single shot thing, ordnance HEAT are conceivably firing multiple rounds which is the distinction between fire attacks that do or don't use multiple rounds for the shot.
 

geezer

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Obviously per A8.25, a hit needs to be made in order to leave residual.
How about a MG declaring a firelane and firing as ordanance?

Is the firelane placed even if the vehicle is not hit? I remember reading somewhere that it is, but cannot provide any quotes.
 

jrv

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How about a MG declaring a firelane and firing as ordanance?

Is the firelane placed even if the vehicle is not hit? I remember reading somewhere that it is, but cannot provide any quotes.
This is allowed per a q&a:

q&a said:
A9.22 May a MG firing as ordnance (e.g., TH vs. an AFV) also declare a fire lane?
A. Yes. [An97; Mw]
It's not clear if a hit is required. Reading the rule I would say that it probably is, but I suspect a request for a q&a would get the answer, "no."

Since we were fighting in Korea, my CPVA troops were naturally on a hill, and a firelane was of no use to me as it was not a continuous slope to the target.

JR
 

Swiftandsure

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What is interesting, is that a HEAT vs.vehicle RF will attack Infantry where a normal attack may not have been allowed (i.e. no building or wall required).
I will have to remember that fact - I don't think that I played HEAT leaving RF after attacking on the VTT until now.
Learning something new every day.
 

Magpie

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Apparently BAZ & PSK aren't single-shot.

JR
PF and H9 aren't single shot either, not in game terms anyway, there both are however of limited ammo supply much the same as a Baz/PSK and not really about enough shots to lay down residual firepower you would think.
 

klasmalmstrom

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PF and H9 aren't single shot either, not in game terms anyway, ...
A PF is considered a single shot weapon in game/design-for-effect terms....
C13.31:
"...A PF/PFk hit does not leave Residual FP because it is a one-shot weapon with limited application vs Infantry. ..."
 

Magpie

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A PF is considered a single shot weapon in game/design-for-effect terms....
C13.31:
"...A PF/PFk hit does not leave Residual FP because it is a one-shot weapon with limited application vs Infantry. ..."
A PSK and a Baz are of limited application v infantry as well, and often has less rounds available that the number of PF in a unit.
 

klasmalmstrom

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A PSK and a Baz are of limited application v infantry as well, and often has less rounds available that the number of PF in a unit.
Perhaps the ASL designers did not think so...or the "one-shot" aspect is the main reason a PF does not leave Residual FP and a BAZ/PSK does. :)
 

Magpie

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Perhaps the ASL designers did not think so...or the "one-shot" aspect is the main reason a PF does not leave Residual FP and a BAZ/PSK does. :)
And yet neither does the H#9 which has a ROF of 2 and depletion numbers.
 

Major Issues

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The D.8 EXample says that a MG would leave Residual in this case:

...Because the HMG was firing as ordnance, the 7-4-7 could not firegroup with it. If the HMG had lost ROF, its attack would leave 1 Residual FP in X1 (reduced from 2 Residual due to the +1 Hindrance), but the Collateral Attack itself does not leave Residual FP.​


With that, I would say the other ammo would as well.
This is an example of a contradiction in the rules, IMO. The D.8 example does say that it would leave residual. But JR was taking "TK" out of context in the A8.2 rule. Edited, this sez, "When a unit is attacked...the target Location...is marked with a Residual FP counter equal to half...of the highest IFT FP column used for that attack."

My contention is that the A8.2 rule SPECIFIES IFT. Firing a MG TH/ TK does not use the IFT, and should not leave residual. An IFT attack would include a TK vs. a vehicle if the target was an UNARMORED vehicle. It does specify that the attack includes a TK. Firing at an armored vehicle does not. There are separate TH and TK rolls.
 

Binchois

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This is an example of a contradiction in the rules, IMO. The D.8 example does say that it would leave residual. But JR was taking "TK" out of context in the A8.2 rule. Edited, this sez, "When a unit is attacked...the target Location...is marked with a Residual FP counter equal to half...of the highest IFT FP column used for that attack."

My contention is that the A8.2 rule SPECIFIES IFT. Firing a MG TH/ TK does not use the IFT, and should not leave residual. An IFT attack would include a TK vs. a vehicle if the target was an UNARMORED vehicle. It does specify that the attack includes a TK. Firing at an armored vehicle does not. There are separate TH and TK rolls.
I don't agree. It's only a contradiction if you ignore A8.2's second sentence:

"If the attack includes a To Kill DR vs a vehicle, Residual FP is created in the same manner [EXC: If AP (unless fired by a MG), ATR, APCR, or APDS was used, or if a Dud (C7.35) resulted, no Residual FP is created]."​
Even the included EXCeption confirms (by EXCepting from the EXCeption) that a MG would leave Residual.

Technically, an IFT attack against an unarmored vehicle includes an "Unarmored Kill Number" but not a "To Kill DR" which is very specifically utilized by the RB:

TK# (To_Kill_Number): C7.11 [Basic TK#: Number beneath Gun Caliber & Length on applicable To Kill Table] [Modified TK#: Basic TK# plus applicable To Kill Modifications (Cases A-D)] [Final TK#: The Modified TK# minus the AF of the Target_Facing hit] [Wading: T2.3] [From the Index]
This is consistent usage within the RB. A standard IFT attack (with or without a MG) against a Location which includes an unarmored vehicle may affect that vehicle if the IFT DR is less than the Unarmored Kill Number, but at no point did the firer make a To Kill DR.

P.S. It seems your only quarrel is with the use of the word "includes" in the above cited sentence from A8.2. I'd agree that could be made a bit clearer ("If the attack consists of or includes a To Kill DR..."), but there's enough here for us to go on.
 

jrv

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So if it's not on the IFT...how do you calculate the residual?
The FP is the same as the attack normally has. If it's HE, use the appropriate IFT column. If it's HEAT, use the column to the left of the HE column, or the given FP for PSK/BAZ. If it's MG, use the MG FP.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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Not to take on the expert. It is not the round...it is the effect of the round (all the crap as a result of a good hit). Whereas say HE the round itself is also creating the residual...besides the effect of that round (all the crap as a result of a good hit). Plasma is ephemeral bits of metal and crap are less so. That was my thought. I grant you that a TH DR represents more than one round...so it is more than one HEAT plasma effect being placed on that target location. But a missis no HEAT worthy of residual...unless you are in Korea...where I got that effect to appear W.8A. ;)
I am FAR from an expert (maybe a former spurt though), but just relying upon experience and training.:)
 
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