Residual in a Bridge hex from Indirect Fire.

Eagle4ty

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If RFP from an indirect fire weapon system (mortar) were placed in a gully/stream hex (at the base level of gully) stream, that also contained a bridge, would units entering the hex on the bridge be subject to it effects. Note: a bridge is a separate location within that hex.
 

jrv

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If RFP from an indirect fire weapon system (mortar) were placed in a gully/stream hex (at the base level of gully) stream, that also contained a bridge, would units entering the hex on the bridge be subject to it effects. Note: a bridge is a separate location within that hex.
The mortar fired on a moving unit IN the gully. I am guessing you are thinking it had LOS to both the IN Location and the bridge location.

Per A8.2, only when a unit is attacked is residual placed in its Location. Spraying Fire has a specific EXC to this [A8.24], but area target type and MTR do not. Since no unit was attacked on the bridge (unless we are talking about a crazy human wave), no residual is placed.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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The mortar fired on a moving unit IN the gully. I am guessing you are thinking it had LOS to both the IN Location and the bridge location.

Per A8.2, only when a unit is attacked is residual placed in its Location. Spraying Fire has a specific EXC to this [A8.24], but area target type and MTR do not. Since no unit was attacked on the bridge (unless we are talking about a crazy human wave), no residual is placed.

JR
That follows my thinking as well that only a unit moving IN the gully would be attacked by RFP. (BTW: Yes, both the Bridge and IN the gully location were in LOS/LOF but only a unit moving IN the gully was attacked originally leaving RFP).
 

jrv

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I thought your question was, is residual placed on the bridge in this case. I see you were actually asking whether a unit is attacked by residual in another location. No, never.

JR
 

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Yowza, that is one hella accurate mortar team to only hit the gully and never drop a shell on the bridge. ;)
 

jrv

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Yowza, that is one hella accurate mortar team to only hit the gully and never drop a shell on the bridge. ;)
When ordnance fires at a unit moving through grain, there is no chance of kindling. If a gun can fire at a man crawling in a field and not hit a blade of grass, missing a bridge should be easy-peasy.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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Yowza, that is one hella accurate mortar team to only hit the gully and never drop a shell on the bridge. ;)
The opposite would be true as well if the unit had been on the bridge and all other factors remained the same (still awfully accurate area fire). Also, interestingly enough, if WP had been fired at the units IN the gully when there were also units on the bridge only the units IN the gully would be subject to the MC and units on the bridge would not (separate Location); nor would units on the bridge have to be treated as firing out of SMOKE (though they would still have to fire through SMOKE-similar to a PB) for the same reason.:unsure:o_O;)
 

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The >ATT leaves no residual where no attack occurs< concept is messing with my mind. So when ITT/ATT targets an empty hex it leaves no residual? A mortar which scores a hit on a 1st level unit in a building leaves no residual on either the empty second level or empty ground level?
 

Eagle4ty

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The >ATT leaves no residual where no attack occurs< concept is messing with my mind. So when ITT/ATT targets an empty hex it leaves no residual? A mortar which scores a hit on a 1st level unit in a building leaves no residual on either the empty second level or empty ground level?
ATT may leave RFP depending on TH DRMs, where the fire is directed at (LOS to the target Location) and how it is fired (Direct Fire or Indirect Fire) regardless of actual units (targets) being in the location.
  • [EX1: A Mortar (Indirect Fire) firing at a multi-level building where it has LOS to all levels of that building and no KEUs in any Location, will only leave RFP - if any - at he ground level location of that building regardless of which level the shot was taken.]
  • [EX2: On the other hand an ITT (Direct Fire) shot at a specific Level/Location of that building under the same circumstances may leave RFP in the Location targeted.
  • [EX3: If, however, firing Direct Fire ATT, the effects and location of RFP are similar to Indirect Fire regardless of the original level targeted.]
It gets a bit more messy when LOS/LOF exists only to certain Locations but not all and when certain Locations (bridges & PB for example) are considered Separate Locations in and of themselves.
 

jrv

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ATT may leave RFP depending on TH DRMs, where the fire is directed at (LOS to the target Location) and how it is fired (Direct Fire or Indirect Fire) regardless of actual units (targets) being in the location.
  • [EX1: A Mortar (Indirect Fire) firing at a multi-level building where it has LOS to all levels of that building and no KEUs in any Location, will only leave RFP - if any - at he ground level location of that building regardless of which level the shot was taken.]
  • [EX2: On the other hand an ITT (Direct Fire) shot at a specific Level/Location of that building under the same circumstances may leave RFP in the Location targeted.
  • [EX3: If, however, firing Direct Fire ATT, the effects and location of RFP are similar to Indirect Fire regardless of the original level targeted.]
It gets a bit more messy when LOS/LOF exists only to certain Locations but not all and when certain Locations (bridges & PB for example) are considered Separate Locations in and of themselves.
No residual is placed unless firing at a moving unit in the Location and that unit is hit. If only one unit is moving in a hex with two or more locations, at most one location gets residual (disregarding spraying fire).

JR
 

jrv

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So when ITT/ATT targets an empty hex it leaves no residual?
During the MPh only moving units are hit. I believe terrain is not during the MPh. During the PFPh, DFPh & AFPh terrain can be hit, but then you don't leave residual FP. You can't fire at an empty hex during the MPh except with special weapons like spraying fire, canister, and aircraft.

A mortar which scores a hit on a 1st level unit in a building leaves no residual on either the empty second level or empty ground level?
A MTR which scores a hit on a moving unit on the 1st level of a building, correct.

JR
 

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During the MPh only moving units are hit.

Indeed. You make a strong point.

I think one should be able to target an empty hex during the Mph by the same logic that lets you target a moving unit. The unit is there at that moment in the Mph... that's why it can be targetted. Well, the terrain is always there... shouldn't it be targettable too? There should be a way to leave residual "in the way" with ordnance ATT as one does with FL and spray fire -- without scoring a hit on a specific unit! Simple rule: ATT which rolls low enough to score a hit ignoring any case J or K modifiers leaves residual FP in all ground level locations ([EXC] Pillbox; interior building) whether the moving unit was hit or not.

Perhaps my planned competing product... AASL (that's double Advanced... not Alcoholics Advanced) will include this perfectly sensible rule. Let MMP tremble!
 

jrv

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I think one should be able to target an empty hex during the Mph by the same logic that lets you target a moving unit. The unit is there at that moment in the Mph... that's why it can be targetted. Well, the terrain is always there... shouldn't it be targettable too? There should be a way to leave residual "in the way" with ordnance ATT as one does with FL and spray fire -- without scoring a hit on a specific unit! Simple rule: ATT which rolls low enough to score a hit ignoring any case J or K modifiers leaves residual FP in all ground level locations ([EXC] Pillbox; interior building) whether the moving unit was hit or not.
ASL is not a linear mapping of time into a game turn. It twists stuff around and compresses it into phases. Prep fire, for instances, represents fire that happens during the entire "two-minute" turn, not just the first ten seconds (say) of those two player turns. But according to the ASL turn structure it happens only at the beginning. In real life while some units are firing, other units are moving at the same time. There is nothing in real life that corresponds to the I-fire-first-and-only-then-I-move-and-then-I-fire-a-bit-more breakdown of the player turn. But it is much easier to create rules for a game that you break up into definite phases where some actions happen and others don't. Defensive First Fire represents a few shots at someone who is probably moving very quickly through an area, not a prolonged shelling of an area. Prep fire represents a prolonged attack in an area. Prep fire is allowed to hit terrain and cause damage to it. DFF represents perhaps as little as one or two shots, and while a very lucky shot might do serious damage to terrain, it probably won't. ASL is an amazing game because it feels like it happens "just like real life." But if you start thinking about it, ASL is a completely crazy snapshot of real life, kinda like a Picasso. It is a picture that is both absurd and yet somehow true:



JR
 

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No residual is placed unless firing at a moving unit in the Location and that unit is hit. If only one unit is moving in a hex with two or more locations, at most one location gets residual (disregarding spraying fire).

JR
Ah yes, one would have to have a unit be moving in the MPh to place RFP.
 

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I appreciate the effort put into that response JRV! ... but I haven't been making any kind of Real Life argument, so no fair straw-manning me as if I had been. I'm saying given this cubist masterpiece of a game it would be fully within its well established idiosyncracies \ to treat ATT as leaving residual in hexes during the Mph in the manner I suggested (for theory purposes only... I don't expect a rule change, I'm not even saying I'd house rule it). If Picasso spray-fires residual into an empty hex why can't he drop a ROF-3 losing 60m mortar ATT attack that leaves resid too?
 

jrv

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If Picasso spray-fires residual into an empty hex why can't he drop a ROF-3 losing 60m mortar ATT attack that leaves resid too?
Why would he fire on an empty hex when he could fire on that same hex when an actual unit moves in? It's a better attack than the residual. With the spray fire you get a real unit, the hex it's in and an empty-but-threatened hex. Unless you were threatened with VBM sleaze freeze I don't see why you would fire at the empty hex instead of a live unit in that empty hex. And if you were anticipating VBM sleaze freeze then allowing anticipatory fire would reduce its value, which would cascade changes through the system.

JR
 

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Why would he fire on an empty hex when he could fire on that same hex when an actual unit moves in?
JR
Meant to respond to you earlier, but technical difficulties intervened.

So to answer your question...sure, absolutely, most of the time it makes sense to wait for an actual unit to shoot at.

But there are cases when you would definitely prefer to fire ATT at the empty hex. Ideally you would need three conditions... 1. a single hex choke point like a bridge or minefield clearance etc. 2. A number of units which must get thru that choke point.... 3. who are individually difficult to hit... hitting the hex is easier.

In that situation I think you'd rather have a decent chance of putting meaningful residual in the bottleneck hex than take a terrible chance of hitting the first unit moving thru the bottle neck -- but that's not an option... the issue here, as you pointed out and which I had failed to appreciate, is that ATT HE doesn't leave residual unless it scores a hit against a moving unit (*edit, nor attack PRC collaterally).

Imagine you've got an exit VC game. You are the delaying Germans, The Brits' only hope in this, their last turn, is to exit 5 infantry laden carriers down a woods road going full speed ahead and they can't lose one infantry VP! But they are almost certain to succeed. Due to the rather bad position of your 81mm mortar you'll have just one glimpse of LOS (1/2 mp) to take your one shot at the carriers. You will go for a shot against the lead carrier... but you'll have to pay Case J+2 and Case P +2 to get an initial hit and leave residual so at say 5 hex range you'd need a "unlikely" DR 2 to hit (the +1 woods don't help until you get a hit!). At present this would be the only option. I think an interesting and possibly tactically sound second option would be to be able to hit the hex (either as prefire during the Mph or when the first unit moves thru the choke point) scoring a hex hit by hitting without Case J or P ... so in my example a DR 7 hits, leaves residual and will attack all those juicy vulnerable crew, passengers, and exposed riders as they pass thru the hex with ATT residual 4fp +2 PC + 0 Rs. (Hope I resolved my example correctly, LOL).
 
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