Remove the gates?

[Dr Zaius]

This is a topic I see crop up from time to time in EVE. Do you think the gates actually improve EVE's gameplay? There are those who feel the gates manage to make space feel small and crowded instead of vast and mysterious.

 

[pward]

They are tedious when traveling distances, even with WTZ.

It would make things interesting if you just jumped into a system, with your jump range defined by the ship you're in, as well as skills. Keep the same fuel mechanic, as another ISK sink, give ships varying sized "fuel holds" for their role. Transports generally would carry extra in their dedicated fuel holds, cov-ops and recon get more than their frigate and cruiser equivalents for long intel gathering patrols.

Ice would become a staple, there might have to be some way of any ship refueling for jumps when out in the sticks away from open markets. Maybe a high slot that "mines" ice to get the fuel needed, without the other items normally refined.

 

[Scott Tortorice]

Getting rid of the gates would also get rid of the problem of gate camping....

The only problem would be sector security. If people could jump in anywhere, how do you defend yourself?

 

[kawaiku]

Ironically I was able to chat with the author of The Lost Fleet series, here is what he said about jumping into a system:

My question (I know it may seem confusing, reading the books may help ):

I am having some difficulty in picturing the jump points in your series/universe that you created. As to my understanding, the Hypernets are the only physically seen mode of transportation as far as I can tell since it appears that jump points are just gps locations. This confused me because it would seem possible for a fleet to alter a little bit in the way they enter a star system? Take for instance Lakota, when the fleet was squeezing out they bumped into the pursuing force. They jumped through, turned around and jumped back ,presumebly dodging the large Syndic flotilla riding in behind them, which made me wonder the possibilities of a collision with no one knowing about it till after arriving in normal space. This would mean that mine fields would be placed as regular mine fields that were found around Gibraltar or the Baltic Sea during World War Two as examples, rather than right outside jump points...this is of course, the jump points are larger than I'm picturing them to be?

His answer:

The jump points are places in space near a star-sized mass which can used to transition into or out of jump space. They are fixed relative to the star mass, that is, certain spots exist in certain locations. You can enter them or come out of them on different vectors, but the jump points themselves have to be used. So ships can't decide to come in at different spots (which would have really simplified avoiding the bad guys). It seemed like a reasonable limitation on capabilities which forced the characters to deal with something they couldn't alter at will.

Basically, these are GPS type points (to my understanding) in which all ships entering a star system must use to jump through (though he never really mentions the size of these areas I assume they are quite big). They are obviously much larger than gates and as such, a fleet could jump in at different angles, height, width, and or distance (as how I interpreted his answer). How would these kind of jump points fit into EVE??

 

[Scott Tortorice]

Thanks for sharing that! How did you get to chat with Campbell?

 

[kawaiku]

Hey no problem! Out of all the stuff he had created, the jump point issue was the only thing that thoroughly confused me (and it still does ). I hope this helps you guys out. What do you think of it? It could be a big enough spot to allow fleets to jump into, and opponents would be forced to sit back a little bit away from the point to wait and see how the enemy force (if any) enters. Not to mention that there would be room for maneuvering for the side coming in at least. You also have the stations already placed in their orbits around planets and such... though traveling through the system at quick speeds would need to be handled somehow. Or maybe the same idea could be applied to planets so that each planet can be accessed through at least several jump points so opposing fleets could play "chess" before engaging no? (I obviously do not play the game but this game intrigues me enough to keep me interested when I get the time and funds to do so)

And I looked him up after finishing the series to see if he would continue it (which he is) and stumbled upon his website (Jack Campbell) tbh, I was really surprised he answered me haha. Real nice guy (email wise). I also found that he would answer reviewers on a few other websites so I decided to see if emailing him about his series would work.

 

[avl90]

I hate the gates for all the reasons mentioned here, but I have no idea whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of them or what the implications for gameplay would be.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I think the main reason so many people are against removing the gates is because that's where the majority of combat takes place in EVE. If all ships could just jump anywhere in system (sort of like Homeworld), then I think a lot of people fear this would make it far too easy to avoid fighting. There would have to be some way to force an engagement, otherwise people will just run at the first sign of an enemy.

I think it could work, but some kind of mechanic would have to be implemented to keep people from just jumping at will.

 

[kawaiku]

I could see the problems that may cause, but the idea is is that you have to move from jump point to jump point without all that very quick jumping, ie, you jump to planet A from an entry point and want to get to planet C's jump point. But you either have to go around to the left or right (and say there is a station on the left or right and an enemy fleet on the opposite). Something like that anyways...

 

[LT COL KILGORE]

Some more info to add to the debate;

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175850

 

[pward]

Getting rid of the gates would also get rid of the problem of gate camping....

The only problem would be sector security. If people could jump in anywhere, how do you defend yourself?

Or replace gate camping with "jump-in-point camping", provided there were just one place to jump into. Say above or below the sun, next to it at the warp in point.

I would suggest not making it selectable, but rather random distance for each and every jumper into the system. Who then have to rally around one fleet mate, or some other celestial object to get themselves situated.

"OK, when you get in system, warp to your squad leaders, who will warp their squad to their wing commanders who will be coordinating with the scouts."

 

[pward]

Some more info to add to the debate;

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175850

That would make things interesting. I wonder if they will have control over who can use the gates if the alliance/corp is paying the bills.

I doubt it, but you never know.

 

[Dr Zaius]

The devs have already said that alliances won't be able to limit who jumps through gates in their space. Nor will they be able to shut down the gates completely by refusing to pay the bills.

 

[pward]

Then the maintenance thing is basically just an ISK sink, saving some of the logistics headaches for those operating in null-sec. Instead of having to get Ice products to the towers, you're just paying the maintenance fees...

One thing they can do, to put a cap on the size of the various domains out there is to make the fees use the same sort of formula as the skill training. Say the number of constellations is the same in the formula as the rank of the skill, with each system costing the same "overhead" based on the calculation.

More complicated options would be a cost per gate, but again with the per constellation modifier I would think.

Or a sliding scale that generates per constellation per star. (As above, but each star system is equivalent to a level of training at that grade.) So one star in one constellation, and you're looking at a fairly small cost. Six or eight stars in one constellation and now you're talking serious cash. Add another constellation and you're expenses just went up quite a bit, even with just one additional star in the new constellation.

But even this sort of situation could be gamed. If it's constellations=rank, and stars=level, you could run an enterprise where just one or two stars per constellation, running across three or four constellations, might actually be cheaper than taking a whole constellation itself. (Same number of stars total.)

Might be best to have constellations=rank, and sovereignty level (or it's new equivalent) be the level of cost. Familiar equations that make things more expensive per level and rank...

I'm also interested in finding out if they will apply the same structures to W space. I know it's not supposed to be "colonized", but I also know the players frequently do things the devs don't want.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Then the maintenance thing is basically just an ISK sink, saving some of the logistics headaches for those operating in null-sec. Instead of having to get Ice products to the towers, you're just paying the maintenance fees...

Yes, and people are commenting on this at the official forums. Still, there probably ought to be some of these costs associated with holding space. CCP is clearly attempting to limit the size of alliances and ensure that monolithic power blocs don't enslave all of New Eden. The bigger they get, the harder CCP is going to make it for them. The question is, how far will CCP go? Far enough to really cause the huge alliances to break up into smaller powers?

Allowing alliances to control gates would simply allow them to close off their area of space, making themselves invulnerable. That seems to be the opposite of what CCP is going for here.

 

[pward]

A total lockdown wouldn't be an absolute "invulnerability". But the gate on the other side is the one that lets ships into the system. Or generally speaking hurls the ship at obscene velocities (thought hyperspace/whatever it's supposed to be doing). It's the gate that won't let people leave the border system that would make things interesting.

Say there are three systems connected by gates: 1 <> 2 <> 3.

System 2 and 3 are controlled by a corp/alliance and all the gates are set to "alliance use only". Some fleet in system 1 can still enter system 2, but will have to cyno or reduce the control level to be able to get out of system 2 via the gates.

Overwhelming force could still take the system, depending on the mechanic to contest the locks/control of the system. You would still have gate camps for the reinforcements that will be arriving, or on the border gate itself. But generally speaking your "industrial core" could remain generally safe.

I would also suggest that locks if they can be applied to gates, always allow frigate sized vessels, so that a cov-ops could get in, and open a cyno for an actual invasion fleet. Of course subject to the other mechanics for cyno jammers etc.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Is this just a suggestion of how it ought to work, or has there been a new dev blog or announcement that I've missed?

 

[pward]

Total suggestion. I probably know even less than you do about the dev plans. I haven't checked the official boards for a couple days.

 

[Chaim628]

And what if they would make more high tech ships (T3...) capable of jumping themselves ?

 

[LT COL KILGORE]

And what if they would make more high tech ships (T3...) capable of jumping themselves ?

They already have T2 ships that can cyno jump into a cyno jammed system;

Black Ops Battleships do not suffer from the normal sensor recalibration time after decloaking. Which means it can uncloak and instantly start targetting. However, penalties to sensor resolution and velocity for having a cloaking device fitted still apply. Note that a Black Ops ship can´t fit a Covert Ops Cloaking device so it can´t warp cloaked. The velocity penalty from the cloaking device is more than made up for by the ships bonus.

All ships with jump harmonics 2 can jump through an activated Covert Jump Portal. The Covert Jump Portal needs to be bridged to another ship which have the Covert Cynosural Field Generator running. Other Black Ops ships will normally just jump directly to the Covert Cynosural Field Generator I in order to save fuel.

Ships with jump harmonics 2 happens to be all ships that can fit a Covert Ops Cloaking device ( Covert Ops including Stealth bombers , Force Recon and blokade runners ). Black Ops ships do have jump harmonics 2 but thats the exception from Covert Ops Cloaking. Jump harmonics 2 actually indicates if the ship can jump via Covert Jump Portal Generator I

Covert Cynosural Field Generator I can be activated in every system below 0.5 sec status. Even if a system is running a cyno jammer ! This makes it possible to deploy a fleet of Black Ops ships behind enemy linies or directly into a battle. By bridging to the Covert Cyno with the Covert Jump Portal a fleet of Covert Ops ships can also be deployed.

Its possible to jump 2 to 4.5 ly depending on skills.



Last month an alliance used this to great effectiveness on our alliance;

http://kb.morsus-mihi.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=241844 :angry: