Red October Campaign Game II

xenovin

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For those not on Facebook, Dade Cariaga argued that the Russian player has no chance and will lose by the end of Day 2. for details on his argument, see his blog post here: https://dadecariaga.blogspot.com/2019/09/asl-rocgii-hopeless-case.html

He challenged anyone to make a case for the Russians so I gave it a shot here:
10378
my counter argument was provide only a token defend in the NE corner of the map (not really any decent defensive locations) and mass the Russian forces in the Martin Furnace hall and the Z35 building backed by three reserved companies including a company holding the slag pile former the northern end of the Russian perimeter. Dade has a point about cutting off the Russian entry locations in the NE but I rather lose it and enter from the south. I don't think Dade expected reserve units and was hoping to quickly cut off Russian reinforcements entering from the NE. This is all theoretical but Dade agreed this could give the Russians a chance particularly if the Germans chose not to activate a reserve company. It was an interesting problem solving challenge. and yes, the FB crowed noted my reserve units all need to move back one hex. Justicar agreed to take Dade on in VASL combat in the near future to see if the Russians really have a chance or not. Hopefully they don't lock the room.
 

CTKnudsen

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Huh, I thought most (I haven't looked that closely) of your reserve locations were ok. >= 6 hexes from german front line locations. Assuming you own all the marked perimeter locations, you should be ok.

I kinda see what Dade is talking about, but I think he overestimates a few things, and misses some important ones.

First, I believe that like RB CG II, this CG is explicitly designed to give the Germans a big day, as happened historically, at least in the Barrikady. The Russians should lose day 1, they are caught out by a force disparity with all the Pioniere making essentially set piece attacks. The difference, interestingly enough, is that in the Barrikady it worked, one factory further south it did not.

Second, I think Dade really over-estimates the effects of closing the NE corner off. He's right in that the Russians will have a hard time stopping it given the lack of numbers, but even if he captures the Burg and Fliegerhaus quickly, takes the slag heap and then colonizes the clifftops by the Russian entry areas, I don't see that being a killer for the Russians. It makes their lives more difficult, but let's face it, if the Russian loses those three areas they are pretty much done on the North side anyways. In fact, I see the situation as having an advantage for the Russians. Using Dade's plan of camping on the spawn points, the German has to at put some strength there. This takes at least something away from the rest of the attack. And if he doesn't put enough there, the Russians might just decide to bring what few on-map reinforcements he chooses to buy on the east side instead of up the south riverbank. But really, the Russian should be seeking to maximize reserve purchases anyways. This leads to some ability for the German to select points of focus and overwhelm, but a canny Russian will always seek to have a live reserve (or OBA) to pressure German thrusts, and limit a German overrun. You know you will lose one or two areas in the first two days, you just seek to bleed the Germans as much as possible, especially if it's for key ground like the Martinofen, the Slag Heap, the GG24 building, and the Red House and Iron Foundry area.

Third, I think if the German makes a major push for the North-East, the Russian must attempt to regain ground in the South-West. This will shorten the Russian front, force the German to protect the 12 stone Locations in the E38 area, and deny the Germans opportunities to bring on flanking reinforcements and threaten the Banny Gully reentrant, which would REALLY cause the Russians problems.

Don't get me wrong. While I think that Dade might be overestimating a bit, it's not by too much. I think this CG will, like RB CGII, favour the Germans, and requires a really sharp Russian player to stay ahead of the catastrophe curve. Whatever happens, I hope someone writes up an AAR, and the dice are not too unkind.
 

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I think the way the perimeter is drawn, he has to setup "east" not "on" that line as the Russians. This is becoming an interesting conversation.
 
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Honza

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The discussion about this CG has peaked my interest. On paper it certainly looks unbalanced in favour of the Germans. But they have a lot to do. They need to capture all but 10 stone locations in five CG dates. The Russians really need to slow the German assault as much as possible by digging in and throwing up as many speed bumps as possible. I think infantry and fortifications is the way to go. They both slow the enemy movement to a crawl. The German will eventually run out of time if he cannot move fast.
 

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I realize this item as not put on the map, but a documentary about the fight for hall 4 made mention of an tunnel running from Hall 4 to the finger gully. This allowed the Russians to get reinforcements to the hall without being seen or interdicted. So maybe this should have been placed on the map and rules designed to cover it. This happens to be an important part to the tactics the Russians used. For the campaign games this is a very important tactic.
 

ctewks

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I realize this item as not put on the map, but a documentary about the fight for hall 4 made mention of an tunnel running from Hall 4 to the finger gully. This allowed the Russians to get reinforcements to the hall without being seen or interdicted. So maybe this should have been placed on the map and rules designed to cover it. This happens to be an important part to the tactics the Russians used. For the campaign games this is a very important tactic.
What was the timing of that tunnel? Same as the CG and Operation Hubertus? Do you have a link to it that you could share please?
 

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What was the timing of that tunnel? Same as the CG and Operation Hubertus? Do you have a link to it that you could share please?
It was not so much of a tunnel as it was a large culvert/sewer that ran from the Martinhofen to the closest gully to the southeast (most probably where the manhole depiction is in the gully). It was so large 4 men abreast and standing tall could move through the edifice. The "documentary" is not so much of a true documentary as a project put together by the U.S. Army Command & Staff College using current ATPs (Army Training Publications) to assess critical components of that fight as they relate to tactical principals expressed by today's U.S. Army doctrine. That being said, it is a fairly decent presentation and predicated upon the work of COL(?) Glantz about fighting in Stalingrad. If you go to U-Tube and search Stalingrad you'll come up with it. I believe someone else has posted a link to it in either the ASL Chit Chat subforum or the MMP one, just can't remember exactly (too lazy & clueless how to give you a direct link).?

[EDIT] Note there is also one on the assault on the Commissar's House (RB) that I thought was well worth the view.
 
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xenovin

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I thought about it but that’s 60 FPP and needed for other things on Day 1

I realize this item as not put on the map, but a documentary about the fight for hall 4 made mention of an tunnel running from Hall 4 to the finger gully. This allowed the Russians to get reinforcements to the hall without being seen or interdicted. So maybe this should have been placed on the map and rules designed to cover it. This happens to be an important part to the tactics the Russians used. For the campaign games this is a very important tactic.
 

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The discussion about this CG has peaked my interest. On paper it certainly looks unbalanced in favour of the Germans. But they have a lot to do. They need to capture all but 10 stone locations in five CG dates. The Russians really need to slow the German assault as much as possible by digging in and throwing up as many speed bumps as possible. I think infantry and fortifications is the way to go. They both slow the enemy movement to a crawl. The German will eventually run out of time if he cannot move fast.
Looks broken to me after a superficial glance. There isn't the room to employ a speed bump strategy. Of course you'd go for infantry and fortifications- that's obvious - but you can't buy enough to compensate for the 7 Coy vs 3 Coy at start forces disparity.

Probably historically accurate OBs. Unfortunately ASL as a game doesn't model urban fighting well and favours the attacker compared to historical results.

I'm due to start playing the big combined Hubertus (RO & RB) in a few weeks as the Russians so will get a better idea. I don't have a great deal of enthusiasm for it but its quid pro quo for my oppo playing caves/other PTO.

I got very bored of my one playing of Red Barricades. It's not that I dislike Stalingrad, just that I dislike Stalingrad to the exclusion of everything else. Hopefully this time by alternating sessions with other stuff I can last the distance. It's only 5 dates....with 150+ squads a side...sigh...
 

Honza

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Looks broken to me after a superficial glance. There isn't the room to employ a speed bump strategy. Of course you'd go for infantry and fortifications- that's obvious - but you can't buy enough to compensate for the 7 Coy vs 3 Coy at start forces disparity.
The Russians can purchase an additional 3 coy in reserve. As the CG progresses the Russians will catch up in the infantry stakes. The Germans don't have enough CPP to purchase masses more infantry. The Historical DRM allow them to purchase 7 more coy after the first date. 7 coy in four CG dates. If they want engineers it will be less due to cost. There are only a few sturm coy available and so some of the coy will be 1st line.

The Russian can only purchase 6 additional coy after the 1st date - but all of these can be elite. I'm hoping the CG balances out as the elite Russians build up.
 

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The Russians can purchase an additional 3 coy in reserve. As the CG progresses the Russians will catch up in the infantry stakes. The Germans don't have enough CPP to purchase masses more infantry. The Historical DRM allow them to purchase 7 more coy after the first date. 7 coy in four CG dates. If they want engineers it will be less due to cost. There are only a few sturm coy available and so some of the coy will be 1st line.

The Russian can only purchase 6 additional coy after the 1st date - but all of these can be elite. I'm hoping the CG balances out as the elite Russians build up.
Russians 3 Coys in reserve leaves no points for anything else and leaves them 6 hexes behind the front lines.

The Russians have 1 factory with nowhere to rout in. The Germans have lots of vantage points to rain MG fire down and prevent any movement and double-break any defense line.

The Russians will never catch up on the infantry stakes. Having less men, the disparity of forces will mean they lose more men. A positive feedback loop.

You're mistaken about the historical drm . In theory Germans can purchase 5 Coys on 1st date. 3 Coys on 2nd date. 2 Coys on 3rd date. Academic as wont have the CPP to do this and max 10 Coys for campaign. Russians are limited to 11 Coys by historical drm.

That sir is a dead parrot.
 

Craig Benn

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Maybe...as I said I'm going to play it and see. Until you do you can't be sure.

But the signs are ominous.

Do we know anyone who play tested it?
 
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On Day 1 you can buy 3 companies in reserve including SMG Coy which only cost 3 so they can save a point or two for something else to buy.

For the campaign, who cares if the Germans interdict the entry area? It only matters if you enter units on those hexes, which you don't have to do:
Reserve and on-map setup ignore walking on these hexes which means freely ignore all the lovely Germans looking at open ground for the day.

I would be happy to see the Germans waste time blocking what you can ignore on setup the next day.

I think the balance of all of these CG have issues. Have to play them a couple of times to see what the specific map key points really are. There is a lot of stone locations on the board. Taking all but 10 is pretty harsh, but the Germans do have the forces.
 

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It was not so much of a tunnel as it was a large culvert/sewer that ran from the Martinhofen to the closest gully to the southeast (most probably where the manhole depiction is in the gully). It was so large 4 men abreast and standing tall could move through the edifice. The "documentary" is not so much of a true documentary as a project put together by the U.S. Army Command & Staff College using current ATPs (Army Training Publications) to assess critical components of that fight as they relate to tactical principals expressed by today's U.S. Army doctrine. That being said, it is a fairly decent presentation and predicated upon the work of COL(?) Glantz about fighting in Stalingrad. If you go to U-Tube and search Stalingrad you'll come up with it. I believe someone else has posted a link to it in either the ASL Chit Chat subforum or the MMP one, just can't remember exactly (too lazy & clueless how to give you a direct link).?

[EDIT] Note there is also one on the assault on the Commissar's House (RB) that I thought was well worth the view.
The Russian getvsewer movemen5 so coukd move into the manhole and from there to the factory.
 

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The Russian getvsewer movemen5 so coukd move into the manhole and from there to the factory.
Only the distance to be traversed would be a bit great for normal sewer movement but could be addressed by an SSR.
 

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If you were playing the Russians then what would you purchase on the 1st CG date? I am tempted to go with 2x Reserve 1st line Rifle Coy, 2x 40FPP and a dug in KV-M42 platoon. The 80FPP would come in very handy for placing mines/wire up front and the KV platoon would come in very handy for its hard hitting Guns.

The German can only purchase 2x inf coy at most and they would have to be in reserve. So the Infantry ratio would effectively be 5x Russian coy vs 7x German coy. The German could purchase an Engineer coy ON MAP. That would make him as hard as they come. Is it worth the CPP expenditure?
 

xenovin

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The Russians need bodies so I wouldn't go for the 1 or 2 KVs you might get on Day 1 (when you can get 9 to 12 squads instead). In the example I posted above, the Russians have 2 INF Co and one SMG Co in reserve leaving 1xFort. This allowed for HIP, mines, trenches and lots of Concealment. I put two trenches east of the furnace building cutting the road and allowing reinforcement through the small village there (or through the sewers in the gully). The Furnace building is defended by most of the fortified building hexes, Guns, MGs and 2x Elite companies and will be a tough nut to crack by the Germans providing they throw everything they have at it on Day 1 and not attack across other fronts (which is most likely what they will do to encircle and not hit the Russians mass). The rear of the Furnace building is defended by more MGs, guns, and mortars up high placing flanking fire down on the building and any German end around moves. The other elite company is in the southern building with its nice fortified basements and level 2 LOS. The Russians can't defend everywhere so need to decide where they want to make their stand - in this case I'm holding the center, mostly giving up the north, and hope to reinforce from the south on Day 2. The reserve units themselves provide nice "speed bumps" as the German will most like avoid these areas for fear of releasing them unless they can launch overwhelming force to destroy a grouping - but will be hard against all three of them. While the Russians will take a beating on Day 1, its far from a walkover for the Germans as some seem to suggest.

If you were playing the Russians then what would you purchase on the 1st CG date? I am tempted to go with 2x Reserve 1st line Rifle Coy, 2x 40FPP and a dug in KV-M42 platoon. The 80FPP would come in very handy for placing mines/wire up front and the KV platoon would come in very handy for its hard hitting Guns.

The German can only purchase 2x inf coy at most and they would have to be in reserve. So the Infantry ratio would effectively be 5x Russian coy vs 7x German coy. The German could purchase an Engineer coy ON MAP. That would make him as hard as they come. Is it worth the CPP expenditure?
 

Honza

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Yeah I guess the 9 squads of a smg coy is worth more than KVs and an extra 40FPP. But they will be in reserve....I'm still toying with the idea.

If this particular RG is depleted then you only get 7x SE in reserve or 1x KV and 40FPP. If it is not depleted than you get 9x SE in reserve or 2x KV and 40FPP. It is a close call IMO.
 

Honza

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The KV and the FPP can set up up front where they are needed on day one.
 
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