Red Barricades Map question

JimWhite

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How many MF does it cost infantry to move from IN FF32 to FF33?

Also...assuming no enemy is adjacent to either hex...at what point (if any) can they hypothetically be shot at while making this move?

Gully to Valley.png
 

STAVKA

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3MF, 4MF if using Shellholes additional cost of 2 MF if it is raining or have rained during the day (can also move up at crest status in FF32 for a cost of 2MF - or 3MF for rain)

Can be fired upon if not adjacent to either hex during the move only as a Snap Shot along the hex side between the hexes (level 1) and of course from HH32-33 to hex F33.
 
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Philippe D.

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From my reading of the rules, the cost of 2MF to enter Shellholes is just that - 2MF, not 1MF for the hex plus 1MF. So if you have to cross a crest line going up, this is doubled to 4MF (or 2MF if just entering the Open Ground).

Doing this with Abrupt Elevation Change would add 1MF for the intermediary open ground, right? So it would become 3MF if not getting protection from the shellholes, 5MF if getting it.

(Of course, I've been known to read the rules wrong)
 

STAVKA

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From my reading of the rules, the cost of 2MF to enter Shellholes is just that - 2MF, not 1MF for the hex plus 1MF. So if you have to cross a crest line going up, this is doubled to 4MF (or 2MF if just entering the Open Ground).

Doing this with Abrupt Elevation Change would add 1MF for the intermediary open ground, right? So it would become 3MF if not getting protection from the shellholes, 5MF if getting it.

(Of course, I've been known to read the rules wrong)
Think you are correct to some extent except in the rules it is written that shellhole entry is not double for higher elevation entry, you must read the example for it to be transparently clear.
 

STAVKA

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Think it is 3MF it not entering the shellholes, 4MF otherwise.
And an additional cost of 2 MF for rain?

To enter the soccer field - world cup in Russia:
- 3 MF (no shellhole), 5 MF for rain.
- 4 MF (use of shellhole), 6 MF for rain.
 

Philippe D.

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Hmm, I hate it when there's some point of the rules that is not written where it should be (in the rules themselves) and instead is hidden somewhere else (in an example that's supposed to help you understand the rules, not tell them what they are).

Plus, it means I played this wrong just this week - I thought a squad could not Assault Move up into a shellhole and maintain concealment.
 

jrv

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A unit IN FF32 has to move from level zero (IN the gully, and not level minus one because most of the RB map is at level one, not level zero) through the intermediate level of level one outside the gully to the final destination of level zero in FF33 (possibly in or out of shellholes). The final move to enter the next hex is a move down from level one to level zero in or out of shellholes, for a total of one or two MF. In addition to the final move, there is the move up to the intermediate level, adding two MF for a total cost of three or four MF. Rain would add two MF to the cost.

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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I might as well throw in my thoughts.

First to leave a gully hex (except from IN a gully hex to another gully hex via a gully hexside) costs double the MF of the hex entered (B19.4) because of the inherent elevation change. That's the normal rule.

If we look at the example for B19.4 which provides an equivalent example of moving from IN a gully hex INTO another gully hex but not via a common gully hexside (in the example 12Y5 to 12Y4) it is treated as an Abrupt Elevation Change (AEC). So regardless that you have moved from level 1 (IN level 2 Gully, FF32) to level 1 (FF33) it's still a AEC.

So to B10.5. The intermediate level in this case is up and costs 2 MF (regardless of the terrain being entered in the target hex).

Entering a shellhole hex can be 1 MF or 2 MF. The 2 MF is 2 not 1+1 (B2.4) . The final hex is down compared to the intermediate level and only incurs normal COT unless in Ground Snow and no reduction except for bicycles and skis.

So you can spend 3 MF (2+1) and incur FFMO OR spend 4 MF (2+2) without incurring FFMO. Unlike exiting Foxholes (Grrr!), that move is considered a unified MF expenditure, so fire can be first applied in FF33, though you could try a Snap Shot along the FF32-FF33 hexside (mentioned in example for B19.4).

If FF33 had been the same level as EE33 then you would be going up without an intermediate elevation so it would have cost 2 MF (2x1, FFMO) or 4 MF (2x2, no FFMO).
 

STAVKA

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Paul wrote: If FF33 had been the same level as EE33 then you would be going up without an intermediate elevation so it would have cost 2 MF (2x1, FFMO) or 4 MF (2x2, no FFMO)
I am sure it should be 2 MF up hill or 3 MF uphill into shellholes (not 4MF).
 

jrv

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Q&A said:
A4.133 & B2.4 The B2.4 example indicates that the cost for changing elevation and moving into an open ground hex and using a shellhole to negate moving in the open is 3 MF which seems to contradict A4.133 which would suggest that it should cost 4 MF. Is 3 MF correct?
A. The COT for the OG is doubled to 2 MF +1 MF for entering shellhole for a total of 3.
In the absence of this q&a I would have agreed with Paul. But B2.4 is written in a very hazy way, and it is not too surprising that the cost behaves like a foxhole/wall, i.e. not doubled for gaining a level.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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In the absence of this q&a I would have agreed with Paul. But B2.4 is written in a very hazy way, and it is not too surprising that the cost behaves like a foxhole/wall, i.e. not doubled for gaining a level.
Wasn't this Q&A incorporated into an example in the 2nd Edition?
 

STAVKA

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Wasn't this Q&A incorporated into an example in the 2nd Edition?
The rule example was in ch O and also transferred to ch B.

Guess that some time in the 80-ties the playtesters of the Red Barricades map (the only map with upper level hill mass and shellholes, for decades) must have thought it was a more reasonable cost to be paid and who? would not agree.
 
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STAVKA

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In the absence of this q&a I would have agreed with Paul. But B2.4 is written in a very hazy way, and it is not too surprising that the cost behaves like a foxhole/wall, i.e. not doubled for gaining a level.

JR
That Q&A is an unneccessary waste of space in the Q&A folder.
 

jrv

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Wasn't this Q&A incorporated into an example in the 2nd Edition?
The example on B2.4 doesn't include a change of level. It shows a move from one gully to a gully/shellhole at the same level. That indicates that the cost to enter a hex with a shellhole is +1 MF and not a strict two MF, but it doesn't show anything about a change of level.

JR
 

jrv

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That Q&A is an unneccessary waste of space in the Q&A folder.
I don't see anything in the B2.4 EX that covers a change of level. A very reasonable way to read B2.4 is that the COT for using shellholes is plus one MF, and that cost should be doubled per B.2. B2.4 is not clear whether the two MF cost is part of the "normal MF/MP cost for entrance" of the shellhole hex or the normal cost of one MF plus an add-on. The q&a makes it clear that it is an add-on, like crossing a wall.

JR
 
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Eagle4ty

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Agreed if one were to read only rules B2.4 & A2.4 you should come to the conclusion that you are entering the hex expending 2MF doubled to 4MF (B10.4). However, the example in B2.4 certainly indicates this is not the case and further clarifies the rule. The Q&A although unofficial as it has never been published in the General, ASL Annual or ASL Journal, seems very particular that the cost to enter the Shellhole is not considered a combined COT MF expenditure, but is a separate MF expenditure like a wall as jrv has pointed out and indeed just reinforces the clarification provided by the rule inclusive of the example.
 

STAVKA

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I don't see anything in the B2.4 EX that covers a change of level. A very reasonable way to read B2.4 is that the COT for using shellholes is plus one MF, and that cost should be doubled per B.2. B2.4 is not clear whether the two MF cost is part of the "normal MF/MP cost for entrance" of the shellhole hex or the normal cost of one MF plus an add-on. The q&a makes it clear that it is an add-on, like crossing a wall.

JR
From the rules B2,4 in line 11-12,
"It may continue movement into AA3 at a cost of two MF (Open Ground) or three MF (if using the shellhole TEM).".
 
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