Red Barricades map issues

[Honza]

Yup....orchards ought to be out of season.

 

[General Mayhem]

The terrain depiction for orchards in or out of season is the same in the rules, it is only in Vasl that the terrain depiction for out of season orchards has been invented.

 

[General Mayhem]

From The Fire of Stalingrad:

“By October with the constant bombing there was nothing left in the gardens or orchards. There were no gardens or orchards left for that matter. Where they used to be, the earth was now all disturbed, covered in corpses and metal.”

So not even out of season orchards.

 

[Proff3RTR]

It has always bothered me that Orchards are in season in October on the RB map. I've never seen a picture with a leaf on a tree from this time period. I think Orchards should be treated as out of season on the RB maps. I will defer to the historians among us as to whether this is a valid observation or if I'm totally off my rocker.

By the time the fighting hit the RB area there were very few trees left intact, mere splintered trunks at most, I feel the one thing that most people fail to understand or comprehend is the shear scale of destruction that happened in that city, it was 85%+ flattened, not smashed up a bit, but flattened, whole districts with not even a curb stone intact! central Grad was gutted and again a lot of stuff leveled or reduced to one or two walls standing.
as I pointed out, the Bread factory area by the time of hubertus was over 90% gone, just smashed up bricks and rubble, there is a picture in 'island of Fire' where you can see what is left of the bread factory and a whole section of road (over 100 meters in length) has completely disappeared into the sewers!

here is a picture of the Commissars house and to its left (underlined in red) is the chemist shop, to the left of that is the 'Kinder Haus' the buildings top right that look gutted are the east side of Pribaltskaya street.
Haus 79 is the southern central building just south (left) of the obvious gully.

you can see how much destruction is there in just that small area.

 

[zgrose]

The terrain depiction for orchards in or out of season is the same in the rules, it is only in Vasl that the terrain depiction for out of season orchards has been invented.

Technically true but I think the Gavutu-Tanambogo map would be less well received if the Palm Trees used Orchard graphics. One of the allure of the HASL maps is the freedom to depict the terrain in its historical state rather than its geomorphic abstraction.

 

[General Mayhem]

Technically true but I think the Gavutu-Tanambogo map would be less well received if the Palm Trees used Orchard graphics. One of the allure of the HASL maps is the freedom to depict the terrain in its historical state rather than its geomorphic abstraction.

True, but to redraw the map with out of season orchards would also require a new RB SSR to state that Orchards are out of season, so this exercise now becomes more than just redoing a map, its redoing the module. In any case if we are talking about a Vasl map the orchards can be made out of season at the click of a button on the existing map.

 

[zgrose]

True, but to redraw the map with out of season orchards would also require a new RB SSR to state that Orchards are out of season, so this exercise now becomes more than just redoing a map, its redoing the module.

Well yes, one would follow the other. I'm merely pointing out that if one does define the Orchards to be OoS, then the community would probably expect the map graphic to match.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Or simply not have the orchards as they in no way could obstruct LOS in real life in the RB area, hell, the place was that smashed up you would of been lucky to find a blade of grass, yet alone a bloody tree!

 

[pybarrondo]

There are out-of-season orchards on the Festung Budapest maps. There's no reason the redone RB map couldn't/shouldn't do the same.

 

[Proff3RTR]

There are out-of-season orchards on the Festung Budapest maps. There's no reason the redone RB map couldn't/shouldn't do the same.

Budapest was not levelled like Stalingrad was, look at the aerial photographs of the two, the 'Grad' was as stated pretty much flattened, around the Factory sector there was hardly a blade of grass left standing let alone a tree.

 

[pybarrondo]

Budapest was not levelled like Stalingrad was, look at the aerial photographs of the two, the 'Grad' was as stated pretty much flattened, around the Factory sector there was hardly a blade of grass left standing let alone a tree.

I wasn't arguing that there should or shouldn't be orchards. Just saying that there's no reason orchards couldn't be rendered as out of season. It's been done, on official HASL maps, was my point. Not comparing Budapest to Stalingrad in any way.

 

[Proff3RTR]

I wasn't arguing that there should or shouldn't be orchards. Just saying that there's no reason orchards couldn't be rendered as out of season. It's been done, on official HASL maps, was my point. Not comparing Budapest to Stalingrad in any way.

Agree, with you, just when the map is repainted d it should have no orchards etc what so ever, they simply did not exists in the area once the fighting had reached it.
A few ripped up trunks here and there at most, not enough to represent a TEM or LOS hindrance.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

I believe Perry's picture is dated in the spring of 43. The devastation shown is after the massive Russian arty barrages in mid January as the red army advanced up from the south east corner. One building discrepancy is the M22 ish area factory (dont have my map handy), it is 3 buildings according to Island of Fire. Some of the stone buildings east of the bread factory were roofless like VotG.

I think a more contentious issue is the lvl of certain buildings. Going from some aerial photos its easy to see that the Comm's House was nowhere nearly as tall as other buildings, some of which were clearly 4-5 floors high, leaving shadows double or more than that cast by the Comm's House. All of the factories that are in a photo containing the Comm's House cast a longer shadow. This is probably something that would cause balance issues.

 

[CTKnudsen]

Hopefully the overlays are robust in the sense that they will maximize historical fidelity, but we will have to see what we get, although I'm sure the overlays will be accurate and of high quality. Should some not be entirely satisfied, however, there is no reason that a keen researcher and a dab hand artistically couldn't do up some revised overlays with a "more accurate" version of key terrain.

 

[Proff3RTR]

The Commissars house was a 3 story job, it is a very substantial building, with a complex cellar area and 3 stories (Ground floor, 1st floor and 2nd floor) so in ASL it should be a level 2 building, during Hubertus the Russians used the upper floor for awhile until the fire hitting the place was too much and then they retreated into the interior and cellar area.
It looked a lot like a castle from the West (I am trying to find pictures on the Net as I have not scanned my copy of IoF), so size wise the Commies house was big, and a veritable fortress that dominated the eastern main exit from the Factory proper and guarded the approach to Haus 79 on the Volga, and the unfinished building sat just east of the Commies House.

 

[Proff3RTR]

I believe Perry's picture is dated in the spring of 43. The devastation shown is after the massive Russian arty barrages in mid January as the red army advanced up from the south east corner. One building discrepancy is the M22 ish area factory (dont have my map handy), it is 3 buildings according to Island of Fire. Some of the stone buildings east of the bread factory were roofless like VotG.

I think a more contentious issue is the lvl of certain buildings. Going from some aerial photos its easy to see that the Comm's House was nowhere nearly as tall as other buildings, some of which were clearly 4-5 floors high, leaving shadows double or more than that cast by the Comm's House. All of the factories that are in a photo containing the Comm's House cast a longer shadow. This is probably something that would cause balance issues.

The picture is dated just before Hubertus so pre 11th November 1942.

Also most of the Factories were only just slightly higher then a Commies house, once the roof supports and such had been smashed in by arty etc.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

The photo appears to be part of this aerial, http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/stalingradaerialscans/GX2839SD/slides/GX2839SD-558.html, which was taken in march of 43. Us Canucks dont consider the ground floor a storey so to us its a 2 story building and elevators are labeled G, 1, 2

 

[Honza]

The photo appears to be part of this aerial, http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/stalingradaerialscans/GX2839SD/slides/GX2839SD-558.html, which was taken in march of 43. Us Canucks dont consider the ground floor a storey so to us its a 2 story building and elevators are labeled G, 1, 2

That is seriously dilapidated terrain. It was a whole lot more intact in Oct. 42.

 

[Honza]

Here is the building.

 

[Proff3RTR]

The photo appears to be part of this aerial, http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/stalingradaerialscans/GX2839SD/slides/GX2839SD-558.html, which was taken in march of 43. Us Canucks dont consider the ground floor a storey so to us its a 2 story building and elevators are labeled G, 1, 2

The whole area pre Hubertus is asu see it in the photographs, the only main changers. Hubertus early 43 was simply more shell holes, very remain buildings were changed except the top floor of the commissary house was pretty much levelled.