RB Roofless Factory LOS

jyoung

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Hi,
My brother and I are transitioning our f2f RB CGIII (5 campaign days in) to VASL (6.5.0) due to covid-19. We're using bdRBv2 as this one has LOS enabled and bdRBv3 doesn't yet (is that correct?). Now that my heroic Germans have liberated some multi-story buildings I'm getting a chance to fire down into the 1.5 level roofless factories, and I found a blocked LOS in VASL that seems to directly contradict the example in the RF/RB rules O5.43 EX #1:
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My understanding of the roofless factory rules is the interior roof edge acts like a hill crest line, so should not create a blind hex if the range is < 5 hexes. There seem to be others:
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Am I misunderstanding the LOS rules (still regard myself as a noob after all), or is there a problem with the underlying LOS data for the board, or the LOS engine?
Best regards,
John
 

STAVKA

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Errata delete all text in the EX that mention hex 016.

No LOS to O16, the O5.43 EX #1: is in error, the exterior Factory walls block LOS as a regular building.

LOS to hex P14 (hex P15 is treated as a hill mass and do not block LOS) since O18 is only 4 hexes away (not 6 hexes), VASL engine in error.
 

DougRim

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I am the guy that added los to the RB and RO boards. I agree with the response to the O18 (2nd level) to O16 los query. O5.4: ". . . aside from not having a roof, is considered a building in all respects."

I agree that there is an error in the VASL LOS engine with respect to LOS from O18 (2nd level) to one of either P14/Q15. It shows blocked for P14 yet clear for Q15 and I can't see a difference between the two LOS?

Stavka, you say that P15 is treated as a hill mass. Why? It is not a roofless hex. O5.43 says that "the dark jagged artwork delineating the interior edge of the roof acts like a hill Crest Line" - but that would be in P14 not P15. Does the presence of the roof edge in P14 change the treatment of P15?
 

jyoung

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Hi @DougRim, thanks for coming back to this. I can't imagine just how much work is involved in doing the LOS data for such a big map. I think part of the answer is later in O5.43 "...The Rooftop artwork extending into a Roofless Factory Hex never itself blocks LOS." That and the other statement "...LOS may be traced along such a hexside... just as if tracing it along a cliff hexside" suggests that despite the depiction, the roof edge is assumed to be on the hexside rather than in the hex. Even then, I don't think it should matter - if the roof edge is treated as a hill crest line, then the roof up to that point (i.e. between the firer and where the LOS crosses the roof edge) is treated as a hill, so won't create a blind hex (as long as the range is < 5 hexes). So LOS to P14 should be clear.

In contrast, Stavka's first point about O16 is that the outside factory wall is a sharp edged obstacle (unlike a hill) so it's entire hex creates a blind hex behind it (i.e. in O16). Not sure I agree with this on realism grounds, but there are numerous examples of rules and "realism" conflicting, and anyway I'm not familiar enough with the official and other Q&A etc where this might have been addressed before. So the wall on the O18/O17 hexside means that all of O17 acts like a regular building hex and puts a blind hex in O16, but the roof in P15 does not act like a regular building hex, rather it acts like a hill, so no blind hex in P14.

Or such is my understanding, anyway :unsure:
 

STAVKA

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I am the guy that added los to the RB and RO boards. I agree with the response to the O18 (2nd level) to O16 los query. O5.4: ". . . aside from not having a roof, is considered a building in all respects."

I agree that there is an error in the VASL LOS engine with respect to LOS from O18 (2nd level) to one of either P14/Q15. It shows blocked for P14 yet clear for Q15 and I can't see a difference between the two LOS?

Stavka, you say that P15 is treated as a hill mass. Why? It is not a roofless hex. O5.43 says that "the dark jagged artwork delineating the interior edge of the roof acts like a hill Crest Line" - but that would be in P14 not P15. Does the presence of the roof edge in P14 change the treatment of P15?
P15 is like a hill mass (roof) hex but instead of drawing the crest lines in the same hex (P15) towards hexes P14 and Q15.

C. Kibler painted the crest lines in the "non-hill" roofless hexes.
 

STAVKA

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All exterior factory walls (O5.5) still exist normally unless rubbled.

Each hex of a Gutted Factory is a Roofless Factory hex, but its Obstacle height remains the same (O5.52).

Obstacle creates a minimum of one blind hex (A6.43).

We all agree, I hope, that no LOS is possible from O18 to the debris hex Q17, regardless if factory hex P17 is Gutted or non-Gutted.

If the debris hex Q17 instead had been a Gutted Factory hex and part of the large factory, that LOS still would been blocked, but the EX: in error think otherwise.
 

DougRim

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Thanks to you both.

I will try to correct the los engine to reflect the treatment of roofed building hexes as hills as per the above.

Would it be correct to say that roofed building hexes are only treated as hills if (a) they are adjacent to a roofless hex and the los crosses the common hexside between those hexes?

Thus, in the example in the OP, P15 is treated as a hill mass for the los drawn from O18L2 to P14. But P16 would not be?
 

DougRim

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All exterior factory walls (O5.5) still exist normally unless rubbled.

Each hex of a Gutted Factory is a Roofless Factory hex, but its Obstacle height remains the same (O5.52).

Obstacle creates a minimum of one blind hex (A6.43).

We all agree, I hope, that no LOS is possible from O18 to the debris hex Q17, regardless if factory hex P17 is Gutted or non-Gutted.

If the debris hex Q17 instead had been a Gutted Factory hex and part of the large factory, that LOS still would been blocked, but the EX: in error think otherwise.
I certainly agree with this and I believe this is how the los engine currently works. Do you know of any errors in relation to Exterior Factory Walls.
 

jyoung

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All exterior factory walls (O5.5) still exist normally unless rubbled.

Each hex of a Gutted Factory is a Roofless Factory hex, but its Obstacle height remains the same (O5.52).

Obstacle creates a minimum of one blind hex (A6.43).

We all agree, I hope, that no LOS is possible from O18 to the debris hex Q17, regardless if factory hex P17 is Gutted or non-Gutted.

If the debris hex Q17 instead had been a Gutted Factory hex and part of the large factory, that LOS still would been blocked, but the EX: in error think otherwise.
That all seems very clear and definitive. My "realism" argument was that it is all four walls as well as the roof of a building hex that cause an obstacle to LOS, and in the O18 to O16 case there is no "back" wall in O17 and no roof, just the "front" (external) wall, so the blind hex should be in O17 rather than O16. But then you can see into O17 through the front wall anyway, just as you can see into the first hex of any building, so there would then be no blind hex at all, and my argument collapses completely :D
 
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STAVKA

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Would it be correct to say that roofed building hexes are only treated as hills if (a) they are adjacent to a roofless hex and the los crosses the common hexside between those hexes?

Thus, in the example in the OP, P15 is treated as a hill mass for the los drawn from O18L2 to P14. But P16 would not be?
No, to question (a), not only across, but also alongside.

A unit on the factory roof of hex M13, can see past-alongside the roofed P16 hex (as if a hillmass) into factory floor of hex P17.
 

STAVKA

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I certainly agree with this and I believe this is how the los engine currently works. Do you know of any errors in relation to Exterior Factory Walls.
Not when we play, you must mean with VASL that we do not use.
 

DougRim

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No, to question (a), not only across, but also alongside.

A unit on the factory roof of hex M13, can see past-alongside the roofed P16 hex (as if a hillmass) into factory floor of hex P17.
Thanks. Good clarification, which I have already got working.

The change to fix the error that you did point out (O18L2 to P14) will be in VASL6.6.3.
 
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