RB Map not really accurate

[Oberst Hausser]

Hi,

Although one expects a bit of artistic license to any game the RB map is quite exceptional. For those interested in remodeling the map (thus the game) the following is provided:

In game terms the factories are too low and the area behind BB33 and around it is missing both height and 2 major buildings, which in this case allow the Russian some major FP areas between the big central factory areas and the Volga.

THUS:

Factories are arbitrarily given heights. Aerial maps clearly show the shadow length thus these must be the same height.



Buildings in the H 40 area (all of them almost) would be level 2, it is a real nightmare on the maps !!



The M 37 Factory area ( big one) clearly has a big hole in the middle of it ( even when the Barrikady is still "standing"),



The big area ( BB 21 - 33) has a few extra buildings all of which are level 2 ..




I would be interested in anyone who would like to annotate a RB map with their own representation of the areal maps of this area.

Regards

 

[xenovin]

It’s impossible to add every building to a HASL map as the hexgrid forces restrictions on how you graphically represent ASL terrain/buildings. You are not the first to point out a few inaccuracies but Charlie K put this together 30 years ago when there was very little info available. It is my understanding that a few overlays will be included in Red Factories if players want to include buildings that were not rubble piles when the battle was raging.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Yes I am sure that would be the case as WW2 history is in a bit of a renaissance, the rubble factor is the least of the problems. The height of the factories and
the physical presence of "rather large" buildings NOT there at all is rendering the "historical bit" a bit lame. Its a pity google maps was not there ))

I am not advocating brick by brick detail by the way just put what was there "as best we can".

Thanks

 

[hongkongwargamer]

You realize also that the actual height of rubble is not uniformly half the height of 1 storey in Stalingrad too right?

Here’s another one : gullies are not all the same depth either in Stalingrad. Let that sink in a bit.

 

[xenovin]

Everyone agrees there are inaccuracies in the map. There is a thread buried here in GS about how the map was created by Charlie on his lunch breaks at AH and not a full research project. If you feel very strongly and have done the research, the community would enjoy seeing a new map by you of the various heights of buildings.

 

[Jazz]

I am not advocating brick by brick detail by the way just put what was there "as best we can".

Thanks

Have at it. You are free to do the work or to try and talk someone skilled into creating maps to do the work.

You will let us know when you're done I assume?

 

[witchbottles]

Have at it. You are free to do the work or to try and talk someone skilled into creating maps to do the work.

You will let us know when you're done I assume?

This... and we would all enjoy seeing your finished work as well.

 

[Proff3RTR]

The actual area and the RB map are two entirely different things, the RB map is for a game, it is a good approximation of the actual area, and does the job well IMHO, yes it does miss a few buildings, (chemist shop for one is not rubble but was there intact during the battle) and a few other additions or subtractions, but it works.
I would like to see a new map, but as others have said, I am more than happy with what we have and can not be arsed to make my own (I have mapped Stalingrad from north Rynok to south Kuprosnoye, leaving out what we have already) in ASL scale on Hexdraw, the RB map is good enough.

 

[Sparky]

rough crowd, at least it isn't reserved for bad forum stand up comedians haha. Seriously man, the damn thing is nearly 30 years old, just consider how much east front scholarship has advanced in only the last 5 to 10 with access to more Soviet sources as well as better and easily accessible information (like.. hello internet since this was released)

I'd say it was extremely well done for the times being what they were then.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Hi,

Although one expects a bit of artistic license to any game the RB map is quite exceptional. For those interested in remodeling the map (thus the game) the following is provided:

In game terms the factories are too low and the area behind BB33 and around it is missing both height and 2 major buildings, which in this case allow the Russian some major FP areas between the big central factory areas and the Volga.

THUS:

Factories are arbitrarily given heights. Aerial maps clearly show the shadow length thus these must be the same height.

View attachment 4719

Buildings in the H 40 area (all of them almost) would be level 2, it is a real nightmare on the maps !!
View attachment 4720


The M 37 Factory area ( big one) clearly has a big hole in the middle of it ( even when the Barrikady is still "standing"),

View attachment 4721

The big area ( BB 21 - 33) has a few extra buildings all of which are level 2 ..

View attachment 4723


I would be interested in anyone who would like to annotate a RB map with their own representation of the areal maps of this area.

Regards

Ok,

In regards to re-doing the map, I would be happy to have a go at doing a 100% or near as damn it accurate version, it may take time, and may not be MMP standards but it will be good enough, I like the RB map, even with its quirks, (all the buildings along penskyia street should be level 1 1/2 stone building with an inherent staircase but most of them are not even there or are wooden on map rubble.

thoughts and ideas welcome.

Regards

Perry

 

[witchbottles]

rough crowd, at least it isn't reserved for bad forum stand up comedians haha. Seriously man, the damn thing is nearly 30 years old, just consider how much east front scholarship has advanced in only the last 5 to 10 with access to more Soviet sources as well as better and easily accessible information (like.. hello internet since this was released)

I'd say it was extremely well done for the times being what they were then.

Not a rough crowd, really. "Herr Oberst" has a mindset that tends to desire "improving" the game components that already exist, rather than consider the creation of new ones that players might enjoy. His hill o'beans I guess- YMMV but in the GS parts - he's rather well known to commence his issues with Red Barr regularly.

 

[Sparky]

Not a rough crowd, really. "Herr Oberst" has a mindset that tends to desire "improving" the game components that already exist, rather than consider the creation of new ones that players might enjoy. His hill o'beans I guess- YMMV but in the GS parts - he's rather well known to commence his issues with Red Barr regularly.

yeah perhaps Jon, perhaps I'm still butt hurt over having my stand up hamada riff get trashed haha.

that mindset is not exactly an uncommon one as we know. Look at Berlin, much in the same boat in a way for some as Red Barricades is for many. Sometimes a game is so damn good that it inspires players to want to improve it and correct faults or inaccuracies. Granted I don't know the personalities here but I did think the good Obert's choices of verbiage to be a bit, rough, and slightly unfair. So it hit me as a bit overly critical considering how old it is and the limitations of the times it was made. Not to mention, umm, it is being updated/updated it is not, and even I knew that before leaving the game years ago.

 

[xenovin]

The actual area and the RB map are two entirely different things, the RB map is for a game, it is a good approximation of the actual area, and does the job well IMHO, yes it does miss a few buildings, (chemist shop for one is not rubble but was there intact during the battle) and a few other additions or subtractions, but it works.
I would like to see a new map, but as others have said, I am more than happy with what we have and can not be arsed to make my own (I have mapped Stalingrad from north Rynok to south Kuprosnoye, leaving out what we have already) in ASL scale on Hexdraw, the RB map is good enough.

Perry,

CH has officially published the grain elevator area of Stalingrad (to the Volga 3 - I think). Same area you did a year or two ago but they are different maps from my quick review. So big chunks of the Grad have been done now. I’d prefer seeing your work on rynok area over redoing RB but that’s just me.

Vinny

 

[Proff3RTR]

Perry,

CH has officially published the grain elevator area of Stalingrad (to the Volga 3 - I think). Same area you did a year or two ago but they are different maps from my quick review. So big chunks of the Grad have been done now. I’d prefer seeing your work on rynok area over redoing RB but that’s just me.

Vinny

Hi Vinny,

did not know CH had covered the GE area, the Rynok/Spartakovka map area is large, I have got Rynok & Spartakovka done, and am working on the area around Orlovka and the approaches to the Dzershinsky Tractor Factory, but this is a work in Progress, along with lots more I have to get stuck back into after almost 2 years ASL abstinence.

hope you are well.

Perry

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Thanks for the replies. One of the reasons for bringing this up was those like me who have played RB a lot.

It might be good to play a more accurate map.

For example the southern big factory apparently has a strange central section and not a complete roof. The southern section behind the gully at the H41 area appear higher throughout.

South if the oil tank area misses quite a bit.

The post was about lets try it this way for those that might want a different experience.

I will get started on a real map to RB comparison and maybe after some input and help for anyone intetested i can send the excellent map i found. IT will result in a very different experience perhaps more historical but I do not even imagine it being a competition map such as tested for RB it is simply a new(ish) game for those so inclined.

Anyone interested just let me know.

Thanks to HK about the gullies and rubble.

LOL

 

[Oberst Hausser]

The Rynok area is to the far north right?

I can send you that part of the map.

It is similarly detailed.

 

[witchbottles]

Hi Vinny,

did not know CH had covered the GE area, the Rynok/Spartakovka map area is large, I have got Rynok & Spartakovka done, and am working on the area around Orlovka and the approaches to the Dzershinsky Tractor Factory, but this is a work in Progress, along with lots more I have to get stuck back into after almost 2 years ASL abstinence.

hope you are well.

Perry

Perry's GE is FAR superior to CH's old and dilapidated effort.

 

[xenovin]

Perry's GE is FAR superior to CH's old and dilapidated effort.

CH is releasing a map similar is size and scale to Perry’s map - not the old CH GE map that was geoboard size. I wonder where they got the idea....

 

[witchbottles]

CH is releasing a map similar is size and scale to Perry’s map - not the old CH GE map that was geoboard size. I wonder where they got the idea....

Don't bet on it - it will be map panels of the old geo board in half board sections - like all their "re-re-re-re-releases".

 

[larrymarak]

Stalingrad is one bastion city that justifies producing at least 2 maps for each segment of the city. That's cause there are 3 distinct battles here. The Sixth Army approach battles, the inner core siege battles, and the liberation battles. Currently CH is trying something like this with their Summer and Winter maps for each segment of their Giant Volga series, but even 2 maps (I.e. September 42/ January 43) doesn't do the struggle justice.