Ray Tapio ranked 7th best wargame designer

[BW92]

As much as you may like to believe it is, akin to having someone else obligated to pay for your healthcare,
work is not a right

You want to eat? Feed your family? That's your duty and personal responsibility not a right that someone else is responsible for providing or guaranteeing to you

If Mr. Tapio was concerned about providing a good product and customer service there would not be a deli line of people taking a number to tell their stories of inferior, overpriced, undelivered or questionably acquired ASL products. If the public's "right" of free and open speech (Guaranteed by the US Constitution and appropriately named as part of the Bill of Rights) regarding those products diminishes his ability to earn a living or work as you say, maybe he should go back to his day job

All I was saying is why the constant RT CH bashing?

Everyone in the US has a right to work - it's covered under the Pursuit Of Happiness statement in the Declaration of Independence....

What bother's me is seeing so many of you think a right is now a Government Program, or some such - that your fellow citizens are obligated to provide you?

Have we come that far? A "Right"" - by the way - is something that the government and your fellow citizens cannot legally deny you...not something they must provide you with, like a benefits program...think 1st and 2nd Amendments.

When I said Ray has a right to earn a living - that's what I meant - he earns his way. My complaint was that some of you would actually do your best to hurt his business - as an SJW does when they throw a tantrum...which just isn't right....he doesn't threaten you.

And no - I'm not a commie bastard.

Anyway I'm done with this - you can come out and rant now...

 

[MAS01]

All I was saying is why the constant RT CH bashing?

Everyone in the US has a right to work - it's covered under the Pursuit Of Happiness statement in the Declaration of Independence....

What bother's me is seeing so many of you think a right is now a Government Program, or some such - that your fellow citizens are obligated to provide you?

Have we come that far? A "Right"" - by the way - is something that the government and your fellow citizens cannot legally deny you...not something they must provide you with, like a benefits program...think 1st and 2nd Amendments.

When I said Ray has a right to earn a living - that's what I meant - he earns his way. My complaint was that some of you would actually do your best to hurt his business - as an SJW does when they throw a tantrum...which just isn't right....he doesn't threaten you.

And no - I'm not a commie bastard.

Anyway I'm done with this - you can come out and rant now...

Allow me to address the "why the constant RT CH bashing?"

I think most members here would agree that Ray's business practices are more than a little suspect. For example, taking an old title, renaming it, adding in a different style of map (map panels now), changing the packaging and then passing it off as a new product.

Using other designers (who no longer are producing) material without attribution.

Probably the best source to keep track of Critical Hit's various "editions", is Mark Pitcavage's Desperation Morale website:

http://www.desperationmorale.com/publisher/critical-hit/

(that's for the CH page on Mark's site)

It does make interesting reading at times.

Cheers,

Mark (not Pitcavage)

 

[Jazz]

Playing too much ASL to really respond to threads , but ya this does remind me of the old ASLML days, still if he had posted this on the ASL FB page, I think he would have had alot more responses.

The guys moderating the FB ASL pages would have shut the thread down as soon as people starting throwing poop around the cage.....

 

[Jazz]

Allow me to address the "why the constant RT CH bashing?"

I think most members here would agree that Ray's business practices are more than a little suspect. For example, taking an old title, renaming it, adding in a different style of map (map panels now), changing the packaging and then passing it off as a new product.

Using other designers (who no longer are producing) material without attribution.

Probably the best source to keep track of Critical Hit's various "editions", is Mark Pitcavage's Desperation Morale website:

http://www.desperationmorale.com/publisher/critical-hit/

(that's for the CH page on Mark's site)

It does make interesting reading at times.

Cheers,

Mark (not Pitcavage)

Exactly.

There is just too damn much crap that Ray has spawned since the early '90s for the vast majority of ASL players from that period to ever trust or support him.

Not everything he publishes is crap, but product of value is the exception to the rule.

 

[BW92]

Exactly.

There is just too damn much crap that Ray has spawned since the early '90s for the vast majority of ASL players from that period to ever trust or support him.

Not everything he publishes is crap, but product of value is the exception to the rule.

Fair enough, in your and several other's opinions. Ray put's out too much crap. OK
But did it ever occur to you that he is updating old stuff with new rules and or counters and content?

It really doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything. This is a guy and company that competes with ASL - that's only good for everyone.
Oddly enough, I see NO comments on GMT's Combat Commander series? They happen to be number one on BGG for this genre... in the new century?

Yeah that means all of you griping about pennies on this thread and - oh dear Ray is rated too high - you are all pathetic
That means the new generation loves that system...yet no one mentions it?
Hell, there's not even a thread for GMT's Combat Commander Series on this (stogy old) forum?
So all I see is a bunch of old die hard ASL guys - in some awkward eternal war against Ray Tapio and CH, but not really interested in the subject of advancing the art of a squad level infantry combat game?
That makes all of you kind of pathetic.

Don't try to say it's about the hobby - you vocal guys are just a bunch of cheap penny pinchers who hate CH for charging too much (in your exulted opinions) for what you all perceive to be a fair price.

And that is directed at all of you CH Hating fools, and hey "clubby" I haven't gone away...I can't stand stupidity.

 

[RandyT0001]

 

[BW92]

View attachment 3607

Yeah, well I'm up for it... Hell I never even met Ray Tapio - although Maureen is a sweetie, I just hate this time old mindless vehemence ...it's a sense of Fair Play that bothers me... and by the way - ATS counters are FAR Superior to the 1970's crap that ASL offers. - Comments?

 

[RRschultze]

Yeah, well I'm up for it... Hell I never even met Ray Tapio - although Maureen is a sweetie, I just hate this time old mindless vehemence ...it's a sense of Fair Play that bothers me... and by the way - ATS counters are FAR Superior to the 1970's crap that ASL offers. - Comments?

Say what you mean and dont sit on the fence!

You wont find many fans of CH or RT here and you will continue to bang your head against a brick wall. I for one don't mind CH products, i have bought more stuff from them over the last two years than any other publisher. Why? because i like their counters and maps, sure the scenarios are probably not play tested well enough but that doesn't stop me from purchasing. I never pay full price as there is always a discount coupon. I've designed a few CG's using their products i.e DTW, Devils Domain and works for me.

There is only a small number of ASL producers and the bottom line is that if you dont like their products vote with your wallet.

Most of the 'traditional asl' stuff is old hat and using outdated graphics and counters - LFT tried with their deluxe ASL pack to change that with 3d looking terrain (which in my opinion looks great) however majority of die hards didnt like it. The only way it will change is when the grognards become too old to 'see' and 'push' counters and a new generation of new asl players join the hobby. That in itself is an issue and worthy of a seperate debate. Or a more radical approach is too approach 'Hasbro' and request/pay for a licence to publish official ASL products. Surprised personally that no-one has done that. In my own personal profession i see this as an opportunity although its not without cost.

Ian

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...and by the way - ATS counters are FAR Superior to the 1970's crap that ASL offers. - Comments?

Certainly a matter of opinion.

Personally I prefer the ASL counters, but then I don't care much for colors, camo, etc. on the counters, as for me it adds little value. But, as always, YMMV.

 

[Jazz]

Fair enough, in your and several other's opinions. Ray put's out too much crap. OK
But did it ever occur to you that he is updating old stuff with new rules and or counters and content?

Of fucking course that is what he is doing! He repackages old/existing product, often renames it, and sells it at an exorbitantly higher price than the original. Does he provide an update to those who have already paid for a supposedly finished product? Not that I have seen.

<shrug> Your call as to how you spend your money. In the end, all sides to this "discussion" are matters of opinion.

I can't stand stupidity.

As someone upthread has mentioned, a fool and his money are soon parted.....<shrug>

But thanks for the entertainment! We haven't had a *real* flame war around these parts in ages! Kinda livens the place up, don't you think?

 

[Jazz]

Hell I never even met Ray Tapio ................Comments?

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too loudly.....

 

[MAS01]

Yeah, well I'm up for it... Hell I never even met Ray Tapio - although Maureen is a sweetie, I just hate this time old mindless vehemence ...it's a sense of Fair Play that bothers me... and by the way - ATS counters are FAR Superior to the 1970's crap that ASL offers. - Comments?

Do you consider it "fair play" to take an old, out-of-print publication, give it a new name, change the map style, maybe make some counters in camo uniforms and then pass it off as a new product? If I took an old '90s Yugo, gave it a new paint job, put in an aftermarket trim kit, upped the price 40% and called it a Major Upham's Igo, would you consider it a new car line? If MMP took Beyond Valor, changed out the map style to map panels, made the counters in camo, charged $225 for it and called it Farther Beyond Valor, would you think that MMP had just released a brand new product?

Mind you, I have purchased a few CH items -- Stonne Heights and Gembloux most recently. And I regularly check the CH website to see what's going on. If there is something that is truly new, has been playtested and proofed and piques my interest, I'll purchase it. But from what I have seen, Ray is marketing to that niche of ASL Completists who would buy a fossilized cow pie if it had an ASL logo on it.

Hell, there's not even a thread for GMT's Combat Commander Series on this (stogy old) forum?

Have you asked Don to start a Combat Commander forum on the GS site? I gather that if he thought it would increase traffic on the site, he'd allow you to do it.

Oddly enough, I see NO comments on GMT's Combat Commander series? They happen to be number one on BGG for this genre... in the new century?

Combat Commander ranks #9 in the war category, ASL ranks #10. Not a whole lot of difference there. But there sure is in the complexity category -- CC at 3.2 and ASL at 4.7 (both out of 5). Play CC if you want a beer and pretzels game; play ASL if you want a more immersive experience. It's up to your preference.

But thanks for the entertainment! We haven't had a *real* flame war around these parts in ages! Kinda livens the place up, don't you think?

Just wanted to echo Jazz's sentiments.

 

[Jazz]

Hell, there's not even a thread for GMT's Combat Commander Series on this (stogy old) forum?

Nobody is holding a gun to your head.....

 

[RandyT0001]

Or a more radical approach is too approach 'Hasbro' and request/pay for a licence to publish official ASL products. Surprised personally that no-one has done that. In my own personal profession i see this as an opportunity although its not without cost.

MMP has the license from Hasbro to publish official ASL products. I doubt that Hasbro is interested in (and may be restricted by agreement with MMP from doing so) making a contract with another company to produce official ASL products.

 

[RRschultze]

MMP has the license from Hasbro to publish official ASL products. I doubt that Hasbro is interested in (and may be restricted by agreement with MMP from doing so) making a contract with another company to produce official ASL products.

It comes down to how long does the licence last for, break clauses, cost, any restrictive covenants, does licence specify that a 'minimum' amount of products need to be released per annum. I could go on. However, we are going off topic!

 

[kynken]

Somebody trying to draw out Pittman?

 

[BW92]

Somebody trying to draw out Pittman?

Well, I can take the heat.

I don't want to be classified as a Troll - though I am sure I am now to some. But that was never my purpose.
I just got tired of going to a forum on a hobby I like, and seeing the same old - same old.

I have no axes to grind to against any of you... really. The way I see it - we all want to see the same thing, and that is good for everyone.
I'm as flawed a human as anyone, and when I feel disparaged - I'm as human as the next guy - and will spit back...for better or worse.

I joined this forum because I'm an old SL then ASL player (if any of you remember SL - I was one who campaigned to change the broken side Moral level of US 6-6-6 squads to level 8 broken...a Long time ago, before ASL came out and did just that) - and this seemed to be the place to see what is going on in the hobby/industry - because I have commercial ideas of my own.

Anyway - Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all...I hope 2018 will be good for everyone.

 

[tmanmerlin]

as soon as people starting throwing poop around the cage.....

LOL, throwing poop around the cages, love it!!