Rat Pocket Charts ver 2

bprobst

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It's a pity that your copy of the rules appears to be defective JR, otherwise you'd be aware that your statement "this is not an error" is indeed a significant error in itself. Case E is NA for LATW, of all types, regardless of what Hit Table they use, because all LATW are SW, and no SW ever has to pay the Case E penalty. (As per the relevant text in C5.5 and C13.1.) There are zero circumstances where a LATW of any type will ever apply Case E, therefore the Rat Charts are in error by suggesting anything different. It's not only wrong, but potentially confusing to players of less experience (as was the case in the BGG thread I mentioned). 5 seconds in looking up the official charts will show that they make no such claims about Case E -- why on earth would the Rat Charts get this wrong? It's an error, plain and simple, and the note should be deleted.
 

jrv

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It's a pity that your copy of the rules appears to be defective JR, otherwise you'd be aware that your statement "this is not an error" is indeed a significant error in itself. Case E is NA for LATW, of all types, regardless of what Hit Table they use, because all LATW are SW, and no SW ever has to pay the Case E penalty. (As per the relevant text in C5.5 and C13.1.) There are zero circumstances where a LATW of any type will ever apply Case E, therefore the Rat Charts are in error by suggesting anything different. It's not only wrong, but potentially confusing to players of less experience (as was the case in the BGG thread I mentioned). 5 seconds in looking up the official charts will show that they make no such claims about Case E -- why on earth would the Rat Charts get this wrong? It's an error, plain and simple, and the note should be deleted.
I was confused by what you were saying, but you are right there is a subtle difference between the official charts and the rat charts. The official charts say case E is n/a for all LATW, whether or not they use their own TH chart. The rat charts says that case E is n/a only for LATW that use their own TH chart. Thus the official charts say that an ATR, which uses the standard TH chart, does not pay case E (correct), while the rat charts say it does (incorrect). If that is what you meant, you are right. The bit about "using own To Hit Table" needs to be removed from note "L" on the rat charts for case E at least. The note itself should not be deleted, however.

JR
 
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bprobst

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The note itself should not be deleted, however.
???

Are you saying that the LFT charts are constructed backwards compared to the official charts? That where the official charts say something is OK, the LFT charts instead say where things are not OK - but use the same symbols, for maximum possible confusion? Because that would be the only reason to not delete an otherwise completely useless and inappropriate note.

Perhaps the better solution would be to rip out the entire page and replace it with something that's actually consistent with the rules.
 

jrv

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???

Are you saying that the LFT charts are constructed backwards compared to the official charts? That where the official charts say something is OK, the LFT charts instead say where things are not OK - but use the same symbols, for maximum possible confusion? Because that would be the only reason to not delete an otherwise completely useless and inappropriate note.

Perhaps the better solution would be to rip out the entire page and replace it with something that's actually consistent with the rules.
There is no requirement in the ASLRB that charts should show only things that are applicable with notes, even official charts. It is at the option of the chart's creator. You have pointed out a place where the chart is not consistent with the rules, which needs to be fixed of course. But to insist that all charts must be identically the same, that's just silly (and probably a violation of copyright).

JR
 

bprobst

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But to insist that all charts must be identically the same, that's just silly
I don't recall insisting any such thing. What is silly is making a chart that "looks and feels" pretty much the same as the official charts (I think you would agree that the LFT version and the official version of the To Hit chart are essentially identical in general layout, differing only where the respective form factors require it) and then using the identical symbols as used on the official charts to refer to different things. The reasonable inference for the casual reader is that the same information is being presented in the same way for maximum familiarity, and yet apparently the exact opposite is intended, leading to maximum potential confusion. I would not care if the LFT charts presented information differently (although, in truth, there is no sensible reason to do so) if they made sure that it didn't appear identical to what it is trying to be different to!

I'll also note in passing that all these months later and there's still no indication on the LFT web site that there is any errata needed for the v2 charts, merely a cheerful suggestion that people should buy the v2+ charts. (I don't suggest any form of deliberate obfuscation, merely a disappointing lack of support for the product.) Speaking personally, I don't really feel that I received good value from purchasing the v2 charts and have no plans to "upgrade"; I think it's a pity, but there you go.
 

Xavier 658

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Hi Bruce,

being currently deployed in Mali, it's a bit difficult for me to update the site and even reply to personal emails, not to talk about advertising our products. Our aim is not to make money but to try to promote our common hobby.

Our artist has a special vision on how to do charts and such, and we didn't see the actual problem that may have arised (I am not talking about the mistake you pointed out and that you discussed with JRV: this was an error, and I apologize).

If you really feel you did not receive good value from purchasing the v2 charts, send me your paypal address and i wil pay you back. With so many charts and numbers within those 36 pages, it is nearly impossible not to find a mistake here or there. We try to stick as much as possible to perfection, but being only human beings and ASL players, we are not perfect.... I also think it's a pity, but here you go Bruce.

All the best,

X
 
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Hi Bruce,

being currently deployed in Mali, it's a bit difficult for me to update the site and even reply to personal emails, not to talk about advertising our products. Our aim is not to make money but to try to promote our common hobby.

Our artist has a special vision on how to do charts and such, and we didn't see the actual problem that may have arised (I am not talking about the mistake you pointed out and that you discussed with JRV: this was an error, and I apologize).

If you really feel you did not receive good value from purchasing the v2 charts, send me your paypal address and i wil pay you back. With so many charts and numbers within those 36 pages, it is nearly impossible not to find a mistake here or there. We try to stick as much as possible to perfection, but being only human beings and ASL players, we are not perfect.... I also think it's a pity, but here you go Bruce.

All the best,

X
I still enjoy using my V1 Rat Chart X! Great value as with all LFT products. You keep producing and I'll keep buying.
 

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I almost ordered the V2+ charts, however I've decided to hold off until the (inevitable?) New version with the Korean war info tables is released.
At first, I thought the same thing.

Then, when I actually looked at a picture of the Ver2+ Rat Chart, I was enveloped and swept away by a wave of coolness...

and bought three (3) copies of the Ver2+ Rat Chart - one for my friend, and two for me!
 

mi80j

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Hi Bruce,

being currently deployed in Mali, it's a bit difficult for me to update the site and even reply to personal emails, not to talk about advertising our products. Our aim is not to make money but to try to promote our common hobby.

Our artist has a special vision on how to do charts and such, and we didn't see the actual problem that may have arised (I am not talking about the mistake you pointed out and that you discussed with JRV: this was an error, and I apologize).

If you really feel you did not receive good value from purchasing the v2 charts, send me your paypal address and i wil pay you back. With so many charts and numbers within those 36 pages, it is nearly impossible not to find a mistake here or there. We try to stick as much as possible to perfection, but being only human beings and ASL players, we are not perfect.... I also think it's a pity, but here you go Bruce.

All the best,

X
Easily a post of the decade.
As a proud and happy purchaser of three (3) Ver2+ Rat Charts, I say:
My compliments, Sir... well played, indeed!
 

mi80j

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I still enjoy using my V1 Rat Chart X! Great value as with all LFT products. You keep producing and I'll keep buying.
Agreed 100%.

The value, respect and courtesy given by Monsieur Vitry and his crew at Le Franc Tireur are awe-inspiring... and stand in sharp contrast indeed to the gutter tactics, and manners, employed by some other ASL vendors.
 

bprobst

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being currently deployed in Mali, it's a bit difficult for me to update the site and even reply to personal emails, not to talk about advertising our products. Our aim is not to make money but to try to promote our common hobby.
Perhaps you should delegate such things to someone on your team who is not located in such a remote place. You have been using the "I have no internet" line for quite some time now. And yet the LFT website does get updated in other areas. From what you say it would be impossible for you to do that, so clearly somebody has the necessary access. I really don't understand why there should be as long a delay as there has been. (Of course, MMP has exactly the same problems in keeping their web site up-to-date, and I don't think we can blame their internet access ....)

As for the refund: that's a very kind and generous offer but completely unnecessary. I think that maybe you think it's the various errors that have put me off. Not at all; I play ASL, I can live with errata. However, that errata has to be made available, and in something resembling a timely fashion. The v2 charts have been around now for so long that you've replaced it with a new product. (A very nice-looking new product, too, I must say, having seen some copies in use when I went to CanCon last month.) I guess that now you don't even see a need to publish the errata at all, which would be very disappointing. That's kind of a side-issue though; the real reason why I don't find sufficient value in the Rat Charts is purely personal -- the format doesn't suit me. I have all of the original rules Charts & Tables (plus extra stuff) in a small binder that is very portable and I'm more comfortable with that than with the Rat Charts. I suspected that might be true even as I placed the order ... but I wouldn't know until I had one in my hands (and at the time, no-one near me had one available to study). It's nothing more profound than that -- just a matter of personal taste. In a sense, I took a small gamble and it didn't pay off for me. I'm not going to cry about it. I am going to complain about the lack of errata though until something is done about it, because that shit is important.
 

von Marwitz

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Perhaps you should delegate such things to someone on your team who is not located in such a remote place. You have been using the "I have no internet" line for quite some time now. And yet the LFT website does get updated in other areas. From what you say it would be impossible for you to do that, so clearly somebody has the necessary access. I really don't understand why there should be as long a delay as there has been. (Of course, MMP has exactly the same problems in keeping their web site up-to-date, and I don't think we can blame their internet access ....)
Now come on Bruce! Please give him a break.

You sound like you feel entitled to something (even though we know that this is not what you want to convey). You know his profession. You know the reason for the "no internet". You were even offered a payback (although we all understand that you did not demand or expect one). Could it be that Xavier simply likes what he does and therefore does not want to delegate it even if he ain't got a fibre cable for his connection? We must not forget that for most people doing ASL stuff it is a hobby and that the limitations of 'real life' take precedence.

Surely everyone would like current errata for everything. But it won't happen. The safest thing you can do is to let others buy products and wait a couple of months for the feedback and then buy or abstain.

Cheers,
von Marwitz
 

Xavier 658

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I hear you Bruce. Thanks for the clarification.

The main reason why I haven't updated the site with the errata is because most of them (looks like a few errors can still be found) have been included in v2 + and also that I prefer to spend more time on newer things and projects, rather than on older ones. This can be criticized, of course. With more time, I still don't know if I would go back to previous publications. As a matter of fact, I have updated the LFT site yesterday with a couple of clarifications concerning FTC 8.

As far as delegating, Benj is already doing a great job with many updates and site maintenance, but with 3 children under 5, I really can't ask him to do more than he already does (a LOT, believe me!...).

The offer to reimburse you was silly, since you don't have the V2 + version, so please let me send you a complimentary copy Bruce, so that you may help us in finding out the other errors that may have remained in this version of the Rat Charts (even though I fully understand that your self made booklet is already enough for you). And if you don't feel like, at least after seeing it, you may be able to give it to one of your ASL buddies around you :)

All the best,

X

PS: the "no internet" is alas something I can't help, most of the time, and i have to accomodate with it.
 
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volgaG68

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I still enjoy using my V1 Rat Chart X! Great value as with all LFT products. You keep producing and I'll keep buying.
I also stuck doggedly to my v1, even though I had bought the newer versions as well. I finally swapped it for v2 because I was tired of having to drag out my big Chapter B chart when playing with Railroads. More than one nice addition I hadn't noticed when I originally bought it. v2+ is still in the cabinet...
 

Xavier 658

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Xavier, you should defect to the US armed forces -- you'll get free internet and a free fitbit(R)!
Tomorrow afternoon I have an appointment with AFRICOM in the US embassy, I will ask his help but am not sure if my diplomatic skills will be strong enough to be successful ;)
 

hongkongwargamer

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Tomorrow afternoon I have an appointment with AFRICOM in the US embassy, I will ask his help but am not sure if my diplomatic skills will be strong enough to be successful ;)
X - I think you have shown in just a few replies here that your diplomatic skills are much much stronger than at least mine.

All the best.

Rgds Jack
 

Paul M. Weir

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Bruce puts things very bluntly as Australians are wont to do. Maybe a bit strongly for my taste. Having said that, the RC's were the one item from LFT that I was less than satisfied with. I was quite content with V1, bought 2 (from SCG) of which I donated 1 to someone when V2 was on the horizon and bought 2 of V2. The lack of the IIFT HE gradations fairly spoilt V2 for me, though I did like the better tabbing. I did buy 1 V2.1/V2+. It wasn't that there were some errors in V2, that might be expected, especially given the re-do of the DTO and other stuff. It was that something that had been got right (with your own artwork) had regressed. If and when a V3 with KW stuff I will get just 1 until I have exhaustively nit picked it, rather than a previously automatic 2.

Oh, I have zero interest in a refund, simply just not worth the hassle for so little money. While a scenario, despite good play testing, might have balance issues or SSR typos, that only affects that scenario that might get played once or a handful of times. A RC should get continuous use and needs proof reading to an excruciating degree.
 
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