Rare subjects for ASL battles.

[KhandidGamera]

I would say Saipan.

Proportionately as bad as Peleliu in terms of U.S. ground casualties. From "The Fleet at High Tide" pivotal in hardening American perspective of how hard it would be to beat the Japanese.

Like to see Vince's version of "Night of the Kitchen Sinks" republished by MMP, but it was OAF.

 

[Honza]

Tinian, Guam, Saipan. All three are interesting battles. "Bloody Red Beach" is taken from Guam of course.

 

[Honza]

Just noticed that there is an Osprey book on Shanghai which was published last year.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Just noticed that there is an Osprey book on Shanghai which was published last year.

Well worth getting for many reasons. To my mind it's that it reminds us that what we know as WW2 was in reality in full swing in Asia for many years, '37 at the latest, some could argue '31 or earlier.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Just noticed that there is an Osprey book on Shanghai which was published last year.

My impression only but i'd hazard to guess that most non chinese books about specific sino japanese battles are about Shanghai Like what msoong & Paul alluded to, the Chinese has been fighting the Japanese for a long time before "WW2", theres a lot more to it than just Shanghai

 

[Mister T]

The East Turkestan rebellion: Soviet-backed muslims against GMD forces

Good luck to find detailed intel on that

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ili_Rebellion

 

[Robin Reeve]

My impression only but i'd hazard to guess that most non chinese books about specific sino japanese battles are about Shanghai Like what msoong & Paul alluded to, the Chinese has been fighting the Japanese for a long time before "WW2", theres a lot more to it than just Shanghai

It could be a very interesting project for the Chinese ASL community to craft some scenarios about the lesser known aspects of the 1931+ conflicts in China.
I presume that you have documented resources in Chinese that very few Westerners could use?
Were there, also, apart from GMD vs. Maoist forces, battles between warlords, adaptable to ASL format?

 

[Mister T]

It could be a very interesting project for the Chinese ASL community to craft some scenarios about the lesser known aspects of the 1931+ conflicts in China.

Although it would be great, nobody knows what the future can bring, and people there have learnt from experience that any judgement on sensitive issues (and this is still considered sensitive) could have serious consequences. So i would not blame them if they are a bit shy about writing anything on their history, even in the framework of a game, and even though these events might look remote for us. People living in other Asian countries may possibly feel less restricted.

 

[xenovin]

My impression only but i'd hazard to guess that most non chinese books about specific sino japanese battles are about Shanghai Like what msoong & Paul alluded to, the Chinese has been fighting the Japanese for a long time before "WW2", theres a lot more to it than just Shanghai

I would argue it is the lack of English sources and not interest resulting in low number of scenarios.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Although it would be great, nobody knows what the future can bring, and people there have learnt from experience that any judgement on sensitive issues (and this is still considered sensitive) could have serious consequences. So i would not blame them if they are a bit shy about writing anything on their history, even in the framework of a game, and even though these events might look remote for us. People living in other Asian countries may possibly feel less restricted.

I am conscious of those limits.
But the fact that many Chinese play ASL seems to indicate that they have a margin of freedom - especially as they do play scenarios featuring Chinese troops (including FW).
When it comes to the sino-japanese conflict, I would presume that the Chinese view on it is quite similar to the West's one: the Japanese government was a ruthless, criminal aggressor - and we all are still waiting for the Japanese present authorities to reckon that fact and offer sincere apologies to the Chinese people.
So a Chinese ASL players' tribute to the terrible struggle of their people against the Japanese imperialism would not put them at stakes with their political authorities.
But I may he wrong, so only our Chinese friends can give a proper answer.
I am perhaps naive, but I do think that access to Chinese sources could really add to the design of scenarios set in China.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I think y'all speculate too much.

I said there ain't enough English books written. I didn't say there ain't Chinese books written.

Like any community, folks will start playing, folks will start forming communities, and folks will start designing stuff and folks will do tournaments. You just have to let it happen.

The one thing I will add is that Asia players tend to be younger and hence a demographics with more interests and less time. Just sayin'

 

[Robin Reeve]

I said there ain't enough English books written. I didn't say there ain't Chinese books written.

That is why I evoked the idea of Chinese ASLers designing scenarios from Chinese books.

You just have to let it happen.

Sure. I was not requiring anything. Just sharing an idea.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

My impression only but i'd hazard to guess that most non chinese books about specific sino japanese battles are about Shanghai Like what msoong & Paul alluded to, the Chinese has been fighting the Japanese for a long time before "WW2", theres a lot more to it than just Shanghai

It could be a very interesting project for the Chinese ASL community to craft some scenarios about the lesser known aspects of the 1931+ conflicts in China.
I presume that you have documented resources in Chinese that very few Westerners could use?
Were there, also, apart from GMD vs. Maoist forces, battles between warlords, adaptable to ASL format?

I agree that there is so, so much more than Shanghai and Nanjing. One book I read around the turn of the year was "The Bitter Peace" by Philip S. Jowett. It covered, at a high level, the various warlord and GMD factions and the ever changing alliances in the up to the 2nd Sino-Japanese War. It is not suitable for ASL scenarios, only gives possible starting points for further investigation, but still a worthwhile read and introduction.

In about 40 years (1911-1949) the Chinese had to endure what I would feel as being in the order of a couple of centuries of European wars, pick any two you want. I don't know if that is accurate, but that's the strong impression I get.

 

[Eagle4ty]

A couple that would be somewhat interesting to many may be the exploits of some Separate Infantry Battalions or Regiments assigned to the U.S. Army such as the 99th "Viking or Norwegian" Infantry Battalion, Separate.

The 99th was an independent infantry battalion made up of Norwegian speaking Americans mostly from Minnesota, Western Wisconsin and eastern North Dakota originally designed to operate in Norway. As is quoted, "Its unit roster read more like a phone book of Oslo than an American Army unit". Formed & activated at Camp Ripley, MN, it would train with the 10th Mtn Div and the "Greek" Battalion in Colorado as well. It arrived on the mainland of Europe on 22 Jun 44 and was assigned to the 1st Army as an Independent Bn but often times attached to the 2nd "Hell On Wheels" AD getting experience near Cherbourg and across central France and finally into the Aachen area. Its first real big engagement was at Wurselen, GE attached to the 30th ID where it engaged in almost hand to hand fighting when it was tasked with holding the salient that jutted to meet the 1st ID in the encirclement of Aachen. Later it would be moved to the Stavelot-Malmedy area where operating often times completely surrounded it helped isolate KG Peiper and along with the Independent "Belgian" Battalion would deny the Germans access to the fuel dumps in the area and conduct in successful counter-attacks to deny the 1st SS Pz Div any further advances in that sector. It remained on the northern shoulder of "The Bulge" operating with the 517th PIR (Ind) as well as the 5th Belgian Fusilier Battalion (Ind) and some remaining elements of the 1st SSF until 22 Jan 45. Ironically, one of the American units that broke through an encirclement to the surrounded Bn while in Malmedy, actually arrested a few members as German spies because their accents were so heavy they thought they were German soldiers posing as Americans. Eventually absorbed into the 474th Ind Inf Rgt along remaining elements of the 1st SSF and some independent para and ranger units, it would fight its way across Germany in April and May of 45, liberating the art treasures the Nazi's had ensconced in salt mines and busting through many a 60 minute roadblock along the way. (NOTE: The German civilian populace referred to the temporary roadblocks thrown up by the retreating German Army as 60-min. roadblocks because the Americans would roll up on on it, laugh for 59 minutes, spend a minute tearing it down and continue on their way undeterred but mildly amused.)

 

[Honza]

There is something we have overlooked. All the major KW battles are still rare subjects for ASL.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

That is why I evoked the idea of Chinese ASLers designing scenarios from Chinese books.
Sure. I was not requiring anything. Just sharing an idea.

Nothing wrong with what you said.

I'll expand it further. Plenty of non (ethnic) Chinese reads Chinese as well, a lot of them WAY better since they studied the language "properly". Certainly a lot ethnic Chinese can barely read beyond restaurant menus. Language ability do not automatically come with (nor is confined to) ethnicity.

The scope of possible designers might well be wider than we think.

 

[Sparky]

Khalkhyn Gol is one that you would think would get some more ASL love being it was one of the more important battles of ww2.

 

[Honza]

Khalkhyn Gol is one that you would think would get some more ASL love being it was one of the more important battles of ww2.

I had to google that to find out what it was.....

 

[jrv]

I had to google that to find out what it was.....

"Red Star, Red Sun." You just had to read your scenario cards.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I had to google that to find out what it was.....

Sorry, but Wow! Though you might have recognised it as Nomonhan (July '39).

Already a scenario ASL 65 "Red Star, Red Stun" on it as well as G 45 "Halha River Bridge"

I'm just surprised as it was such a decisive campaign, the first one of a certain Georgy Zhukov. The Soviets utterly thrashed the Japanese and served them their ass with a very generous side helping of borscht. After that the Japanese suddenly lost any appetite for Siberia and wandered south for their '41 winter holidays. Though nothing near on the scale of Poland two months later, it literally had war changing strategic consequences.

It was one of the few true curb stomps of WW2, I would rate it better than August Storm (Soviets slapping Japanese, Manchuria, August '45) and that (AS) better than Yugoslavia '41. Those three are about the only ones I can think of, though Y'41 did drag out in later years.

It does just emphasise that China and its immediate environs are, though not a complete ASL black hole, a very dimly lit ASL pit.