Rally Point #15: Special Study I of the Korean War is now available

FourDeuceMF

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And that is very very obvious in your designs and rules for KW.
Which is quite laughable, given that although Ken is our resident math geek, he was always the one who strove to "keep things simple."

The CVPA will NOT play like your run-of-the-mill Soviet clone. That is intentional. Want a Soviet-clone army with a little Asian zing? That's the NKPA.

There really was nothing like the CVPA in the system up until this point - indeed, the massed infantry tactics employed echoed an older time, however the weapons tech made it so these tactics became especially bloody. Indeed, the CVPA wasn't even the same of either constituent part that fought the Chinese Civil War - it was a new animal, so to speak.

One tried-and-true ASL design feature, the step-reducing squad, pioneered by the Japanese in ASL, helped to flesh out the 'Bugs Mr Rico, Zillions of 'em!' aspect of an enemy that could take hits and keep on coming. However, the tactical flexibility of such a large beast, without some sort of restraint on individuality (anathema in the Chinese army of that time), would end up with actions that bore no resemblance to the war being simulated. Hence, an adaptation of another ASL artifact, Platoon Movement, was adapted.

Try out the same tactics that you use for Soviets, Germans, Brits, or Americans with the CVPA, you will fail. This is not a problem with the system. This is a direct result of the most different troop type introduced to the system since the Japanese. Just like the Japanese/PTO, you will have to learn how to use them well, and just as with the Japanese, using them well will reward you with a different, satisfying experience of ASL, in a new theater. As for all intents and purposes, from early '51 to the end of the conflict, the CVPA were the main opponent (the NKPA having shot their wad and ground down to a shell), they are the major antagonist for the UN in the KW, not some 'add-on'.

It's really not that hard. Even Ken could do it. ;-) Surely, you could, too. You know the Japanese rules, just learn to grok Infantry Platoon Movement, and you would be there. You'll be out of your comfort zone for awhile. EXPECT to take casualties. Unlike most other armies, those are expected...the key is to accomplish the mission, men are expendable in that army (sucks to be them, to be sure).

And it is quite obvious from some of the comments, that you may not be as familiar with the Korean War as you may be of the Eastern Front in WWII. That can be remedied. Plenty of good books out there on the topic. Roy Appleman's series (started as a Black Book by the US Army History division - South to the Natkong, North to the Yalu) is a great start...though the Chinese really shine in his later books, East of Chosin being the best.
 

Danno

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You'll be out of your comfort zone for awhile. EXPECT to take casualties. Unlike most other armies, those are expected...the key is to accomplish the mission, men are expendable in that army (sucks to be them, to be sure).

There was speculation that the initial intervention force was specifically sent to eliminate the excess elements of the PLA. Before Korea the PLA was 6 million +. After it was less than half that. Many of the initial units were those that had surrendered to the communists in mass during the civil war and had then joined the PLA. Indoctrinated by political officers and joined the fight against the GMD. The troops are truly different from the other two types of Chinese troops. Some of these units were raised by warlords in the 1920s, brought into the GMD in the 1930s, fought the Japanese and then the civil war in the 1940s and then sent to Korea. Generation war, there is many an interesting story there. Mao could not give them land and retire them like Roman Legion. Korea was his chance to get them out of the way. It worked so well in 1951 China instituted conscription to replace the losses.

They are very fun to play.
 
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Gunner Scott

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The root of the problem as I see it is how do you justify giving a very minor nationality that fought in korea for around 2 years so many capabilities? we have early chinese, late chinese, chinese grenadairs, soviet armed chi-coms, leaders, political leaders, restricted fire, platoon movement with a crap load of exceptions) recon units, HS overruns, night, early cpva night, bugles, weapons use, entrenching, ordnance, concealment, HIP, melee. Where as the IJA rules are numerous admiringly those rules are not in use all the time and they tend to make sense because the IJA fought for over 10 years in various theaters of operations. Basically no fiddly rules to really deal with the IJA where as the cpva are choked full of heavy chrome that makes them a pain in the ass to play. the lesson here for future rocket scientist designers, keep it simple stupid.
 

JRKrejsa

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I have wondered about that. Many of those troops would not be trusted, "Good Communists." If they proved themselves, good for them. If they died, I bet Mao didn't lose any sleep over it....
 

FourDeuceMF

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The root of the problem as I see it is how do you justify giving a very minor nationality that fought in korea for around 2 years so many capabilities? we have early chinese, late chinese, chinese grenadairs, soviet armed chi-coms, leaders, political leaders, restricted fire, platoon movement with a crap load of exceptions) recon units, HS overruns, night, early cpva night, bugles, weapons use, entrenching, ordnance, concealment, HIP, melee. Where as the IJA rules are numerous admiringly those rules are not in use all the time and they tend to make sense because the IJA fought for over 10 years in various theaters of operations. Basically no fiddly rules to really deal with the IJA where as the cpva are choked full of heavy chrome that makes them a pain in the ass to play. the lesson here for future rocket scientist designers, keep it simple stupid.
Rather easy to justify. First, the CVPA fought for over 2/3 of the war's time frame. That's more than comparable to the US' involvement in WWII, scale-wise...and we have very many flavors of that.

For the reasoning for initial intervention, then the later Soviet-armed versions, etc., I refer you again to the books. "Minor Nationality"? Your ignorance of KW history is showing. Hell, current events...China STILL is the key to solving any problems with NK, even today.

I see your biggest issue is that you don't understand _why_ the CVPA are different. The only way for you to really understand is to do some reading on the issue. Failing that, do understand that we've had many years of research into this conflict alone...I have on my shelves nearly 200 volumes, covering the various combatants, histories from overall down to unit, etc. Hell, I've been involved in one way or another with a KWASL since the '90s. This product has been gestating in it's recent form since the turn of the century (I was living in Kansas when it restarted, then Indiana...now I'm in greater Chicago). This isn't/wasn't a quick money-grab. It IS a paradigm shift. As Perry noted above, we worked closely with MMP to make sure that it was still 'ASL', however it stands alone as well. Why the hell would we publish KWASL if it was nothing different from WWII? It was, and the module is. And it's really not much in the way of new material, given the overall scope and time frame. Hell, it's shorter than Chapter F, and it's got several national characteristics, new nationalities, new terrain, and a Chapter H to boot.

KWASL is NOT WWII ASL. It never will be, nor should it be. It's certainly not something that could have been done as a hip-shoot with a pocket-full of SSRs. If you wanted that, there's a company in NY that's more than willing to take your money.
 

hongkongwargamer

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The root of the problem as I see it is how do you justify giving a very minor nationality that fought in korea for around 2 years so many capabilities?
I am pretty sure most China players I know will disagree with this. We all have different ways to phrase it but from where they stood, they routed the USMC from the Chosin Reservoir. If "a very minor nationality" did that .. well ..
 
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djohannsen

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I see your biggest issue is that you don't understand _why_ the CVPA are different. The only way for you to really understand is to do some reading on the issue.
I just read Evans Carlson's "Twin Stars of China." Sure a different era (1937-38), but really eye opening as to the heterogeneous nature and history of China and the Chinese military. Gives context to many of the comments above, and makes me realize just how inappropriate a single rule set for the Chinese would be. (Now I'll hunker back down to lurking, and do some more reading on the second Sino-Japanese war - a new interest.)
 

hongkongwargamer

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I just read Evans Carlson's "Twin Stars of China." Sure a different era (1937-38), but really eye opening as to the heterogeneous nature and history of China and the Chinese military. Gives context to many of the comments above, and makes me realize just how inappropriate a single rule set for the Chinese would be. (Now I'll hunker back down to lurking, and do some more reading on the second Sino-Japanese war - a new interest.)
Dude, if you get a chance, pls lemme know if you spot any good English accounts out there
 

djohannsen

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Dude, if you get a chance, pls lemme know if you spot any good English accounts out there
I think that they are few and far between. I've read good things of the two books by Harmsen (Nanjing and Shanghai), but haven't read then yet. Also, take a gander at his upcoming book (Storm Clouds over the Pacific, 1931–1941 (War in the Far East)), which promises to the first of a trilogy. Finally (and next up for me), is Dorn's book, The Sino-Japanese War, 1937-41: From Marco Polo Bridge to Pearl Harbor, which I think most people regard as the best overview of the entire period that exists in English.
 

Paul M. Weir

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The root of the problem as I see it is how do you justify giving a very minor nationality that fought in korea for around 2 years so many capabilities? we have early chinese, late chinese, chinese grenadairs, soviet armed chi-coms, leaders, political leaders, restricted fire, platoon movement with a crap load of exceptions) recon units, HS overruns, night, early cpva night, bugles, weapons use, entrenching, ordnance, concealment, HIP, melee. Where as the IJA rules are numerous admiringly those rules are not in use all the time and they tend to make sense because the IJA fought for over 10 years in various theaters of operations. Basically no fiddly rules to really deal with the IJA where as the cpva are choked full of heavy chrome that makes them a pain in the ass to play. the lesson here for future rocket scientist designers, keep it simple stupid.
Scott, despite your mutual antagonism you are starting to sound like Pitman :p!

Chinese Political leaders: Those have been in ASL since CoB, indeed just a variant of BV's Commissars. Stripe-ing has also been around since CoB.

Varieties: The early and late war Chinese are a real reflection of the improvement of armament over the war from a barely post-guerilla army to a reasonably decently armed army. Early units were really that badly equipped. I remember Pitman bitterly complaining about the 4 types of USMC squads that came with GH that later had 2 variants (ParaMarine, Raider) added in OW and RS for a total of 6. The Chinese also have 6, half of which are 2nd line vs 1st line so there are really only 3 lines, Early, Late and Grenadiers. I tend to take the positive view in that it permits a designer greater flexibility in trying to match the capability and performance by the CPV in a particular action. CPV units could also possibly be back fitted into post '45 Chinese Civil War rather than be stuck with just the relabelled 337 partisans.

Platoon Movement & Restricted Fire and others: An attempt by the designers to reflect the behaviour of the CPV in the KW that was unique to the CVP. Whether such behaviour is a truly accurate representation of the CPV or just a reflection of their perceived behaviour by the CPV's enemies can be debated a bit, but without that FW would be just Eastern Front with hills and Yanks.

I found the Japanese rules additions to be a bit of a mouthful when I got CoB. Easy to understand and quite in accord with my understanding (whether good or bad) of the Japanese. Gaining some proficiency was quite another matter and I still have to go back to the RB quite often (I clearly don't play enough). I regarded them as the hardest nationality until the CPV were added. The CPV are roughly the same height of step above the Japanese as the Japanese were above everybody else. So while annoying, if you can manage the Japanese, I bet you can handle the CPV. It will take time but I have faith in you.

Speaking of Platoon Movement and the like, we now have a body of rules that could be applied to other conflicts, maybe the Gran Chaco War which at times more resembled early WW1 trench warfare than very late or post WW1 warfare.

While frustrating I prefer to look at the newly opened possibilities side of things.
 

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I am pretty sure most China players I know will disagree with this. We all have different ways to phrase it but from where they stood, they routed the USMC from the Chosin Reservoir. If "a very minor nationality" did that .. well ..
routed? I am not sure that's the word that I would have chosen. Yes, they surprised and surrounded the X Corps but that was about the end of their success. Initial at start forces were 120,000 v 30,000. At the end of the battle, in which the X Corps survived intact, the 9th PVA Army suffered over 48,000 casualties compared to 10,500 for the X Corps. That is by any definition NOT a rout.
It was a geographic victory for the 9th PVA Army but they would not return to combat for a year and it was a tactical combat victory for the X Corps as they realized that they could fight the Chinese and win effectively making the battle a draw.
 

TopT

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I think that they are few and far between. I've read good things of the two books by Harmsen (Nanjing and Shanghai), but haven't read then yet. Also, take a gander at his upcoming book (Storm Clouds over the Pacific, 1931–1941 (War in the Far East)), which promises to the first of a trilogy. Finally (and next up for me), is Dorn's book, The Sino-Japanese War, 1937-41: From Marco Polo Bridge to Pearl Harbor, which I think most people regard as the best overview of the entire period that exists in English.
I enjoyed his book on Shanghai and am now very much looking forward to his 1st book in the new trilogy. Thanks for that update.
 

hongkongwargamer

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routed? I am not sure that's the word that I would have chosen. Yes, they surprised and surrounded the X Corps but that was about the end of their success. Initial at start forces were 120,000 v 30,000. At the end of the battle, in which the X Corps survived intact, the 9th PVA Army suffered over 48,000 casualties compared to 10,500 for the X Corps. That is by any definition NOT a rout.
It was a geographic victory for the 9th PVA Army but they would not return to combat for a year and it was a tactical combat victory for the X Corps as they realized that they could fight the Chinese and win effectively making the battle a draw.
I will be very surprised if you decide to choose that word :)

Oh, Peter Harmsen asked about ASL against the context of Shanghai 1937 http://www.chinaww2.com/2014/08/01/iacta-alea-est/
 
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FrankJ

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routed? I am not sure that's the word that I would have chosen. Yes, they surprised and surrounded the X Corps but that was about the end of their success. Initial at start forces were 120,000 v 30,000. At the end of the battle, in which the X Corps survived intact, the 9th PVA Army suffered over 48,000 casualties compared to 10,500 for the X Corps. That is by any definition NOT a rout.
It was a geographic victory for the 9th PVA Army but they would not return to combat for a year and it was a tactical combat victory for the X Corps as they realized that they could fight the Chinese and win effectively making the battle a draw.
Thanks for making this point. I agree, "Rout" was a poor word choice. The book "The Last Stand of Fox Company" is just one account of US Marines making a heroic stand at the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Thanks for making this point. I agree, "Rout" was a poor word choice. The book "The Last Stand of Fox Company" is just one account of US Marines making a heroic stand at the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir.
Try reading some of the heroic accounts from the CPVA. :)

Two sides to everything story, sometimes more.

I told the “other” side the same thing btw.
 

hongkongwargamer

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I can't bear to read Harmsen's book on Nanjing though.

On the flip side, I am on "The Korean War" by Matthew Ridgeway at the moment.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Nobody is discounting heroics & bravery on either side but the 9th PVA Army did not rout anyone, period.
Alright Top - you are right. Bad choice of words - my apologies. I am too loose with my choice. I do like your quick summary though. :)
 

von Marwitz

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Which is quite laughable, given that although Ken is our resident math geek, he was always the one who strove to "keep things simple."
Now, my following remark is not aiming at FW but rather at those math geeks:

They always tell the non-math geeks that math is so simple... :mad:

von Marwitz
 
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