FrankJ
Cap'n Crud
Is it because of the subject matter in Harmsen’s book?
Rally Point #15: Special Study I of the Korean War is now available
- Thread starter Evan Sherry
- Start date
hongkongwargamer
Forum Guru
Oh geez .. absolutely!!! Oh no mate, not saying anything bad about the book. Thanks for the help in clarification!
hongkongwargamer
Forum Guru
It's actually on my Kindle .. will get to it after Ridgeway.
djohannsen
Senior Member
Very cool! Thank you for the pointer to this.
Yuri0352
Elder Member
I am pretty sure most USMC veterans will disagree with this. We all have different ways to phrase it, but from where they stood, the costly retreat from the Chosin reservoir (during which multiple CPVA divisions were either destroyed or rendered combat ineffective) does not qualify as a 'rout'.
The destruction of Task Force Faith however, that portion of the Chosin battle could certainly be regarded as a rout.
Justiciar
Elder Member
But for the grace...Good move, sacrifice the Army and save the Marines
That would have been the 5th Marines instead of RCT-31. RCT-31 replaced the 5th at the Inlet only a day and a bit before the CPVA struck. Recommend "East of Chosin".
BTW the TACP for RCT-31 was a Capt. Stamford USMC...he survived, walked over the ice and entered Hagaru-ri. He survived the war and passed away in 2003.
hongkongwargamer
Forum Guru
Fair point.
My original point though, lest it gets lost, is that the CPVA is no “very minor nationality”. They did ~ encourage ~ the migration back to the 38th parallel. The regard on human lives, via their tactics, is appalling. Perhaps a necessary use of their advantage at the time? Hence the homegrown tactics described upstream.
I knew that i should have looked that up BEFORE responding.....
Kenneth P. Katz
Senior Member
China and "very minor nationality" don't belong in the same sentence, except if the sentence also includes "not". You really need to read some serious history before you comment on things like this.
william.stoppel
Elder Member
I like the new Rally Point Scenarios Evan. Nicely done (and nicely done by Scott at the Gamers Armory for fast shipment). I particularly like the two Commonwealth scenarios. Perfect intro to Korea scenarios! I’d say y’all accomplished your mission very well
Danno
Ost Front Fanatic
Looking forward to this pack too (ordered on Tuesday). And to any CPVA scenario the SP crew develops. Glad to see some new KWASL designs.
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Ok the chi-coms were not a minor nationality but a nationality with very limited assets which might rate them with the maybe the axis or allied minors. The problem I am seeing from a players perspective is that the flow of the game is seriously hampered by the numerous special capabilities the Chinese possess. Oh these guys are the early war Chi-Coms? Well we gotta see how many of these crazy nationality characteristics apply to the early chi-coms like SW repair on a 1 and ammo shortage. These are Sov armed Chi-coms? well how many rules apply to them? Late war Chi-Coms as usual what rules apply to them.
Was this level of detail really necessary? Dont get me wrong I like detail in my games but for a Nationality that just ended its civil war with no clear tactical doctrine seems like the designers really wanted to make the cpva special. Yes all nationalities had command and control problems, logistics problems and more, but ASL tactical combat is in such a short window of time that most stuff like restricted fire, IPM, SW repair and so on really should not be instituted into a small scale warfare type of game.
I know poeple have read lots and lots of books on the KW and there are lots and lots of instances where certain formations moved or fired in a certain manner and so on, but a designer should keep one rule above all else and that is to make the nationalities playable and fun. Honestly, would we have this large of a following for ASL if every nationality had its minor quibbles incorporated into them?
Was this level of detail really necessary? Dont get me wrong I like detail in my games but for a Nationality that just ended its civil war with no clear tactical doctrine seems like the designers really wanted to make the cpva special. Yes all nationalities had command and control problems, logistics problems and more, but ASL tactical combat is in such a short window of time that most stuff like restricted fire, IPM, SW repair and so on really should not be instituted into a small scale warfare type of game.
I know poeple have read lots and lots of books on the KW and there are lots and lots of instances where certain formations moved or fired in a certain manner and so on, but a designer should keep one rule above all else and that is to make the nationalities playable and fun. Honestly, would we have this large of a following for ASL if every nationality had its minor quibbles incorporated into them?
FourDeuceMF
Senior Member
Scott, this product was tested over several years - and the feedback we got from the playtesters (both internal, and then when MMP took over) was very positive for the CVPA. It passed vetting, with many folks involved in the playtest/feedback/improvement process.
You are wrong that there was 'no clear technical doctrine'. Quite different from 'western' doctrine (or even of the recently-defeated Japanese), but there was one installed. The reasoning for the two squad-types was specifically due to a huge upgrade in weaponry from the initial intervention (the 'first' attacks that knocked the UN back to the parallel), and the army that set into the more set-piece battle.
'Fun and Easy' were emphasized in the design. However, 'generic' wasn't. There aren't any more 'crazy exceptions' than many other nationalities have, they're just up front, there to be seen.
Bottom line - the CVPA were the MAJOR Communist belligerent in the KW - even moreso than the NKPA, after mid-'51. That means for the majority of the war. You're looking at two 'types' of CVPA (as the Grenadiers are mostly a sub-set of the first initial intervention type), up against a UN line-up of ROKs, US Army, USMC, Commonwealth, & the whole UN.
It's a new war, new tactics, similar weaponry and scale of WWII. If it weren't 'different', it wouldn't be worth doing. Just throwing some SSRs on US v Soviets/KMT isn't going to cut it.
In the end, no one is forcing you to play it. But I'm confident that more people will than won't, and will enjoy the richness of what it does. Will there be 'learning difficulties'? Yes - but I believe those will be more for the 'entrenched ASL grognards' than the run-of-the-mill player...less WWII Eastern Front tactics to 'unlearn'.
You are wrong that there was 'no clear technical doctrine'. Quite different from 'western' doctrine (or even of the recently-defeated Japanese), but there was one installed. The reasoning for the two squad-types was specifically due to a huge upgrade in weaponry from the initial intervention (the 'first' attacks that knocked the UN back to the parallel), and the army that set into the more set-piece battle.
'Fun and Easy' were emphasized in the design. However, 'generic' wasn't. There aren't any more 'crazy exceptions' than many other nationalities have, they're just up front, there to be seen.
Bottom line - the CVPA were the MAJOR Communist belligerent in the KW - even moreso than the NKPA, after mid-'51. That means for the majority of the war. You're looking at two 'types' of CVPA (as the Grenadiers are mostly a sub-set of the first initial intervention type), up against a UN line-up of ROKs, US Army, USMC, Commonwealth, & the whole UN.
It's a new war, new tactics, similar weaponry and scale of WWII. If it weren't 'different', it wouldn't be worth doing. Just throwing some SSRs on US v Soviets/KMT isn't going to cut it.
In the end, no one is forcing you to play it. But I'm confident that more people will than won't, and will enjoy the richness of what it does. Will there be 'learning difficulties'? Yes - but I believe those will be more for the 'entrenched ASL grognards' than the run-of-the-mill player...less WWII Eastern Front tactics to 'unlearn'.
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Evan Sherry
Elder Member
Rally Point #16: A World at War 1937-1945 will be a World War II themed pack and will probably be released in early 2019.
Rally Point #17: Special Study II of Korea might be released in time for ASLOK 2019.
We currently do not have a release date for Schwerpunkt Volume 24. It will probably be sometime in 2020.
Rally Point #17: Special Study II of Korea might be released in time for ASLOK 2019.
We currently do not have a release date for Schwerpunkt Volume 24. It will probably be sometime in 2020.
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Kenneth P. Katz
Senior Member
Kenneth P. Katz
Senior Member
If the Korean War had been an internal Korean affair, it would have been a horrible experience for the Koreans but of little concern to anybody else, Korea being an obscure backwater at the time. But the Korean War was one of the most important events in the Cold War, with enormous ramifications in many ways, and the CPVA were the most important Communist combatant (North Korea being mostly a theater of war and only secondarily combatant after fall 1950).
The CPVA had a distinctive tactical doctrine and situation that could not be well represented by portraying it as a nationality with "vanilla" characteristics. While there are 4-5 pages of rules for the CPVA, if you study them you will see that 90% of the CPVA rules are either applications of existing rules or variations on existing rules, albeit combined in new and interesting ways. We wanted to make the CPVA easy to learn for the typical ASL player of intermediate or higher skill, and I believe that we succeeded well. I think that almost any intermediate-level ASL player could learn the CPVA rules with an hour's study and then playing a scenario.
The CPVA had a distinctive tactical doctrine and situation that could not be well represented by portraying it as a nationality with "vanilla" characteristics. While there are 4-5 pages of rules for the CPVA, if you study them you will see that 90% of the CPVA rules are either applications of existing rules or variations on existing rules, albeit combined in new and interesting ways. We wanted to make the CPVA easy to learn for the typical ASL player of intermediate or higher skill, and I believe that we succeeded well. I think that almost any intermediate-level ASL player could learn the CPVA rules with an hour's study and then playing a scenario.
Markdv5208
Senior Member
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wasn't
Good move, sacrifice the Army and save the Marines
I am beginning to like you first Sergeant. FOR the record, 6 years USMCR, then 14 years MI National Guard. Infantry and Tanker.....