questions/comments about artillery

[MKeen]

Infantry in ASL is modeled with alot of detail
Armor in ASL modeled almost as detailed
Artillery..well what happened. Anyone know why OBA is well so plain and vanilla. Actual national capabilities are really not modeled very good.

With curent rules you cannot balance a game that has OBA. Either it is balanced if you get it working, or it is balanced if you lose it(2 red draws). Just wondering as this has always bothered me.

MKeen

 

[Cthulhu]

I agree with you, but since it seems that many players eschew OBA as being "too difficult to learn", a more realistic approach would likely never get used at all.

This might be a good topic for a detailed set of house rules.

 

[Klaus Fischer]

Guys,
I'm nowhere near from being an Artillery expert, but worked for a while in an Indoor Artillery Simulator for the US Army, so here are some comments:
-the actual ASL OBA rules are real simple; just as usual it's all these friking exceptions. So try some basic artillery first, get a hang of it and then wonder about all these exceptions.
-Balancing a scenario with OBA? Well, you can always add an HSR/SSR that states about 2 red chits, automatic black chit draw and so forth. But isn't ASL always a bit "luck dependent" - especially smaller ones. If your key unit breaks, the scen is over. If OBA will be a key unit in your scen, protect it by SSR/HSR.
-National Capabilities. Well, if you have OBA in a scen, it is allready allocated to that unit, so the major process of asking for OBA is allready over - it doesn't matter if you only had to ask the Batalion, Division, or all the way up to Corps. So what is left is communication and accuracy. Some is portrayed by the radios, some by the Chits.
Off course OBA is very abstracted, but think about the amount of rules that would be involved in a more realistic/detailed OBA process - can you say Landing Craft, or Caves? 8)
So IMHO the OBA rules are not bad at all for ASL, but as everything in ASL you (Player AND Designer) need to understand it properly and have a good plan about it - how long the plan lasts, is a different story :wink:
Just my 2 c (Euro Cents)
Klaus

 

[Jeff Leslie]

The one thing that has always bothered me about the artillery system is the radio contact and battery access. Given the time span of an average ASL scenario (actually, for such an "abstract" game, I don't think that an ASL turn can even have a finite time limit like exactly 2 minutes), I would imagine that I have already made radio contact and have access to the battery to even get the OBA module in the first place and have it be a part of the scenario. Even with the electronics technology the way it was during WWII, it seems to me that the inclusion of an OBA module in a scenario in the first place should make the assumption that my radio works and I have contact with the FDC or the battery and now have the undivided attention of the firing battery or batteries. Maybe make a radio like a regular SW and give it a breakdown of 12 to cover the intervention of fate.

The other thing that has bothered me is the ranges that we are talking about in a scenario in relation to an artillery FFE. Bringing down a 155mm battery level FFE 200 meters from my own position is most likely something that would only be done in extreme desperation. Calling for fire today within 1000m is called "danger close", and we have GPS accuracy today.

My solution (like it will ever happen...) would be to "abstract" any artillery support over mortar size into a "random damage" allocation prior to scenario commencement. Mortars could still be included as an FFE, they are a little more surgical and many times have LOS to their targets or at least to the area of the target. I would probably eliminate the radio all together and include an FO SMC that is assumed to have contact to the mortar battery. There could still be certain circumstances where artillery could be included in scenarios (BRT is a great example of real life "danger close").

Jeff L

 

[sswann]

Artillery

Cthulhu,

I beg to differ.

Artillery can be more realistic in ASL and can be made simpler.
First distinguish between local assets and higher level artillery.
Local (your unit) can use the Naval OBA rules while the higher level assets use the regular OBA rules.

The use of National charatistics could be implimented easily without destroying any basic rules.

Use of Forward Observers could also be used to help OBA become more balanced and predicitable in ASL. Look for FO rules in an upcoming module (can't say more as yet.)

Steve

 

[FourDeuceMF]

Arty in ASL gives about the right effect. It forces you to think about it when there's a SR on the board, and keep yourself under cover.

With all the metal flying around, it's amazing that there aren't more casualties in ASL, but then again, ASL is not meant to represent those large stretches of time where a unit is stagnant and being subjected to barrages (like episode 8 of Band of Brothers).

The only thing I'd probably like to fix in ASL with regards to the arty is the permanent loss of OBA on the 2 red chits. Rather, the red chits should just be recycled, and their drawing just represents extra 'friction' in the air.

Another nice touch is counter-battery, still trying to see the best way to do that. HOB had a nice stab at it in Onslaught to Orsha, maybe to tweak it from there.

 

[rryeates]

Artillery in ASL

For many smaller to medium scenarios (especially those representing fairly fluid situations) I think the existing OBA rules are fine. Pretty simple and lots of potential for good or bad. I have read enough detailed campaign accounts to find a tremendous number of occurrances of poor communications, failure to properly coordinate, FFEs that were fired but did not land in the specified spot, and the like.

What I really like to play are CGs though. I guess I like them fine like they are, but things do start to break down in a variety of ways when you move to the CG level with squad leader. I think artillery suffers especially in this regard. Do I think it needs to be fixed? Not really. Could it be simulated in a more historical fashion? I think yes. Would ASL be "funner" with more historical OBA? In many cases I think no.

 

[jthompson]

I wrote an article about this topic in Critical Hit magazine 4-1 a few years ago. As an artilleryman for over 20 years I felt the rules needed some help. Some of my ideas had to do with getting benefits on accuracy by using a better leader as an FO, accuracy being modified by the class of unit majority, and adjusting the extra chit draws depending on whether or not the Artillery was in direct support or not to name a few. I personally do not like the rules as written.

Jim "Gunny" Thompson

 

[TankDawg]

Great Topic!

Let me start by saying that I have the worst luck with chits, so might be a little biased with OBA.

I am all for Radio contact, but think battery access, at the level of size ASL is at, is not necessary. Gunny, I do remember your article and LOVED the concept. (If I recall, dependant on ammo, you would get a certain amount of FFE's - still had to worry about radio contact and accuracy but NOT whether or not you got arty)

Too many attacks in ASL would not have taken place historically if there was no arty prep or smoke. That is why I like how HoB and Schwerepunkt are using SSR's to guarantee a first black chit draw.

In others words scenario designers, don't give me a scenario where I have to do a massive attack, that all but requires smoke or arty support without ensuring I get Arty.

I think a house rule WOULD help balance scenarios and such. without it, you can NEVER have a balanced scenario that has OBA.

 

[TankDawg]

Mike,

As regards to permanent loss, I totally agree! That would be a simple fix.

And most importantly, you would not have the effect that exists now:

You know your opponent just drew 2 reds - CHARGE!!! Group your men!!! Run!!!

I am really embarrassed - why didn't I think of that simple tweak? Draw 2 reds? Just keep drawing. Think I will ask my future opponents to agree on this house rule.

Thanks

 

[Cthulhu]

I am really embarrassed - why didn't I think of that simple tweak? Draw 2 reds? Just keep drawing. Think I will ask my future opponents to agree on this house rule.

That does seem like an elegant and simple way to solve one of the biggest problems with OBA.

 

[Harold]

I heard that CH or someone at CH had a variant where you kept putting the reds back into the pile discarding only black ones. Once you drew two reds instead of OBA being over the red was returned and another red put into the pile. This would keep going as long as reds were drawn. You always had a chance of getting OBA but the odds would continue to decrease once you became a "lesser" priority to battalion.

 

[TankDawg]

Harold,

We should use this when we play. Seriously. Would be good for both of us. Cuz next to me, you draw the most red chits.

:lol:

 

[FrankH.]

Arty in ASL gives about the right effect. It forces you to think about it when there's a SR on the board, and keep yourself under cover.

With all the metal flying around, it's amazing that there aren't more casualties in ASL, but then again, ASL is not meant to represent those large stretches of time where a unit is stagnant and being subjected to barrages (like episode 8 of Band of Brothers).

The only thing I'd probably like to fix in ASL with regards to the arty is the permanent loss of OBA on the 2 red chits. Rather, the red chits should just be recycled, and their drawing just represents extra 'friction' in the air.

I like the replacing the red chits idea.

Replace the red chits once two have accumulated until at least one (or two, or a dr#?) black chits has been drawn? Then do not replace the red chits?

In any case there is still a very good chance even if the threat of "two red chits" is eliminated that the module will not work due to broken phone or radio. That issue has to be solved by a SSR if the lack of OBA has a serious effect on play balance in a scenario.

Frank

 

[John McDiarmid]

Biggest problem with Artillery in ASL is that it does not kill enough.

Something like 85% of all casualties in the war were caused by "shells" from small mortars to heavy OBA to tank rounds.

The issue for a game is balance. Give artillery its "real" power and you bascially kick the hell out of the side that is getting hit.

I like the idea that you never "lose" OBA (except rockets or SSR) and basically reshuffle in any and all red cards as they are drawn.

Then you do not get the "sucker has no OBA, time to make kill stacks" mentality that does happen.

 

[SamB]

The fact that 85% of the causalites were caused by Arty doesn't mean that OBA doesn't kill enough in ASL.

The Arty casualties include MANY that happened ouitside of any sort of framework that would fit in a scenario of any sort...

There are no scenarios that depict a shell landing as guys get out of their holes to get breakfast, or take a crap. Or the sell that collapes a house on a squad sleeping in the basement.

My point is that you can't look at the over-all casualty rate and insist that casualites in an ASL scenario match that rate.

Sam

 

[Pitman]

That's exactly right. On the western front, mortar fire caused more allied casualties than any other source, in many units. However, only some of this fire actually took place during an "up front" action. Lots of units lost men to mortar fire merely getting from the rear to the front (see the great memoir, "So Few Got Through," by Martin Lindsay for an excellent example).

 

[FrankH.]

Would you simply reshuffle all black and all red chits immediately back into the cup after they are drawn?

That would be the simplest method.

That way you would never run out of the possibility of OBA during the 10 to 25 minutes or so that most scenarios are estimated to last, although there would be the possibility of moments (a half turn) or a few minutes (a turn or so) or even up to the whole scenario that the OBA would not be available just due to picking red chits that always get returned.

The average result would certainly add to the power and effects of OBA modules (leaving out Rockets, Smoke, and IR rounds for this discussion), yet leave the uncertainty of not getting it when it was needed and the uncertainty to the other side that it could start again at any time.

Maybe the only black chits that would be removed from the cup would be those used for Smoke or IR as these types of ammo were generally in shorter supply.

I am ignoring phone and radio problems in this argument. Not sure if these factors would need to be addressed except through SSRs in scenarios that are unbalanced due to OBA irregularities.

Frank H.

 

[Pitman]

Doesn't this fall into the realm of needless tinkering?