Questions about our CM Conduct

kawaiku

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Heya guys, I've been a fan of the CM series since I first purchased CM:AK in a local gaming store and now currently own CM:BO-CM:AK. This was the first site I visited and joined that pertained to the CM gaming series and community and I've never left it since. This is due to all of the great members here who meander in and out adding all sorts of advice, scenarios, gaming opportunities, and more to the community that I've seen based around CM. Since CM:SF, I've become rather disheartened by many of the actions of the members here (no offense to you guys, you're still a bunch of fun guys to...err.. type with) in all of the bashing that has gone on. It seems like every time I come here there is some new discussion about BF's latest oops' or comments by Steve or Moon. I personally do not frequent the BF forums since I can pretty much trust that you guys know your business... imho, it looks like to me we are in a sense just giving the stubborn guys at BF some more "publicity" be it negative or positive. And all we are doing is acting like The National Enquire and jabbering all about, "he said this what an idiot," and, "they should do this but they think they know all things." Yes it is sad that such a great series took quite the step back, but we don't need to just keep blabbering about it, what's the point?

This is just how I feel about it all and I needed it off my chest :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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Yes it is sad that such a great series took quite the step back, but we don't need to just keep blabbering about it, what's the point?
It's a discussion forum about CM.

We're discussing CM.

We could post finger-paintings if you like? :hmmm: :p

Last autumn, this forum was dead for days at a time.

Last summer (?), this forum was nothing but flame posts and arguments.

Been through a few phases. Forums are like that.

If you want to discuss something else, then post something else, and if people want to talk about it, they will. If they don't, they won't. If you want to not talk about it, don't read the posts. I don't see that it is more complicated than that, unless I've misunderstood what you're asking?
 

Rocket-Man

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kawaiku,

You can always go over to the World at War forums where all they seem to discuss is religion and poo. :D
 

mangus2000

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Good on you Kawaiku :)

Although i've not posted for a loooong time i pass through once in a while and am glad to see the site being a bit more active these days.

Personally i have nothing against BF bashing at the mo as it might help them get their act together for CMx2 WW2. On the other hand all of us should feel free to voice their opinion on how this site is going as it will help us keep our act together as well ;-)

Just my 2pence worth :)
 

[hirr]Leto

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Thanks for your input Kawaiku, and duly noted.

My interest with BFC and the new CMx2 Normandy is more "Puck-ish" than anything... I from time to time post deliberately juicy and asinine little threads with cool names to attract everyone in to look at it, and then wind up the BFC bashing brigade.

It's a cruel thing to do, but I am a shallow, bored man with little else to amuse myself at the moment. Please hold your scorn/sympathy for later though:

I am NOT a detractor of BFC, and while I choose the option of being a bit playful and mischevious on these boards to stir up the dust every now and then, I support BFC and very much wish for them to be successful. That being said, it has already been pointed out that gamers like us, are a very very very very minute and perfunctory concern for BFC, and this has often been stated with great derision by the staff and hangers on of the staff at BFC.

I also see their point of view: you can't please everyone... and their disaffection with a certain group of gamers is perhaps easily explainable, yet on a branding/marketing/PR axis, extremely disappointing at times, and bereft of any real rationale other than frustration, impatience and personal bias.

I think everyone here would love to see a working Cmx2 and play it and enjoy it. But you see, there is a rift if you will, in time and space, that allows BFC to continue on its path in an often bellicose and ascerbic manner that some people just do not pander to, and thus turn them off, or make them disgruntled and post their frustrations, wants, and advice for BFC here... out of the LOS of fire so to say.

As a guy who teaches business strategy for a living, especially in the high tech/innovation areas where software is such a big sector, I understand that the dilemnas faced by BFC are wholly representative of the sector: one case in point, software companies OFTEN release buggy and incomplete programs to their customers, as it is a great way for them to generate cash flow to keep the fires burning, and to have mass testing and feedback in order to improve the game (and with many programs, this customer relationship after release DOES bring value to both customer and company, and a better game or software is produced... but in mass consumer markets, these relationship are not easily controlled or communicated and thus must be treated extremely carefully by the releasing company). But the strategies and models differ. For instance, BFC was very candid about the buggy state that they released the game CMSF in, stating after (long after) its release, that they knew it but had no choice but to run with it.

Some people would say that this is a bad marketing and branding move, and it HAS frustrated a lot of people. If they would have come out and released it as a "demo" game, I doubt a lot of people would have paid for it. So their are some ethical concerns to raise, and perhaps rightly so, no matter what the true position of BFC was at the time, or even if they had a position.

This lack of communication, or obfuscation of it, has been part of the business model for some time now... I would state that the bubble went up shortly after CMBO and they have been on the defensive ever since.

Only a trusted group of people who are "yes men" in public, but may actual defray and criticize in private are on the team, and the feedback received on the website is not really even a minor source of their game design activities.

Other companies (matrix comes to mind, and is bandied about but there are others) play in the same sandbox, with the same pissy grogs, twitchers and serious hardcore gamers, and do a better job with the "image and feedback" area of their companies, and thus have greater success, or at least perceived greater success than BFC.

Personally, I am looking for an era that sees the softening of the

- "you don't get it",
- "your opinion is worthless"
- "tow the line or eat the dime"
- "you don't likey da game... hmmm... I KEEEL YOU!"

smug rhetoric that often accompanies the chatter on the web community pages at BFC. But hey, listen, they are sticking to their business model, battle plan, and feel that they can systematically cauterize a swollen few hundred to thousand gamers (but perhaps only dozens or so true posters) that are naysayers/criticizers, frustrated wish listers, and open toed gumboot useful dissenters.

It is their game and their business model.

Most of the people here wish to discuss the new game, and perhaps even the business model and actions of BFC and the community as open points of frustration.

Sure, it would be nice if everyone could just... get along. But it ain't gonna happen I suspect.

So posting of this nature will continue into the foreseeable future (avec continuing satire and hyperbole, I suspect), and I would wager, well after the release of CMx2 Normandy... that will most likely be delivered on a plate of pay for it now, we'll fix it later philosophy (they are a small shop, so this is a valid tactic). At the end of the day, I think most of us would be happy if they came out and stated their intentions as best as they could along the way and gave us as much information as possible, whether or not they act on any feedback.

You may now activate scorn/sympathy for Leto mode. I know almost everyone else does at this point.

*please now play "Sympathy for the Devil", by the Rolling Stones as end credits music... it is now an anthem that you should all automatically play in your minds each time you finish reading one of my posts.

So if you meet me
Feel free to have no courtesy
No sympathy, or no taste
Don't use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your message board... to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, (It's Leto btw) um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my arseholish game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, whats my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, CALL ME names
I tell you one time, I'M ALWAYS to BLAME (yeah blame, Leto... get down!)
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who

Cheers!

Leto
 
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Michael Dorosh

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[hirr]Leto;1117109 said:
You may now activate scorn/sympathy for Leto mode. I know almost everyone else does at this point.

Cheers!

Leto
I regret I already gave positive rep for your last post; should have been for this one. ;)
 

Patrocles

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Heya guys, I've been a fan of the CM series since I first purchased CM:AK in a local gaming store and now currently own CM:BO-CM:AK. This was the first site I visited and joined that pertained to the CM gaming series and community and I've never left it since. This is due to all of the great members here who meander in and out adding all sorts of advice, scenarios, gaming opportunities, and more to the community that I've seen based around CM. Since CM:SF, I've become rather disheartened by many of the actions of the members here (no offense to you guys, you're still a bunch of fun guys to...err.. type with) in all of the bashing that has gone on. It seems like every time I come here there is some new discussion about BF's latest oops' or comments by Steve or Moon. I personally do not frequent the BF forums since I can pretty much trust that you guys know your business... imho, it looks like to me we are in a sense just giving the stubborn guys at BF some more "publicity" be it negative or positive. And all we are doing is acting like The National Enquire and jabbering all about, "he said this what an idiot," and, "they should do this but they think they know all things." Yes it is sad that such a great series took quite the step back, but we don't need to just keep blabbering about it, what's the point?

This is just how I feel about it all and I needed it off my chest :)
my 2 cents...

Good points. I spend time at this site and the official BF site to get a bit of balance. Personally, I don't see this site as "jabbering" and acting like the national enquirer.

So, to me it seems as if there has been a bit of splintering of the CM fans.
imho, posters here love CM and many think the series did take a step backwards with the problems of CMSF. However, discussing these issues has become difficult, if not impossible, at the official BF site. So, folks have to go somewhere to let off some steam and discuss what they consider to be important issues of CMSF without constantly being told "you just don't get it."
 
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[hirr]Leto

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I regret I already gave positive rep for your last post; should have been for this one. ;)
Bah, I painfully and lovingly craft all of these posts for everyone here, and alas, seldom do I receive any rep points for it... outside of negative ones it seems...

: (

There is not much sympathy for the DeviLeto... not ever...

Ooo who who
Ooo who who
Oow who who

Keith Richards: "'uckin' 'ell, yew sawdders... give the bloke a ruddy rep point already". (of course, this would be unintelligible jibberish that you would not understand if it came straight from King Keith's palsied pie-hole without my translation)

Cheers!

Leto
 
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Geordie

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If we could hold the types of discussions over at BF that we have here it would be different. Until then.....
 

thewood

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We talk about BFC because BFC is a compelling story. From being perceived as the icon of the small indy house thumbing its nose at the big game houses, to parroting those same houses and pissing away a loyal base.

My view towards BFC now isn't really about CMSF. Hey they screwed up, it happens, you can move on. My issue has been and will be the adoption of the corporate culture by BFC in its dealings with its customers: no straight answers, disdain for the customer base, constant marketing drival, etc. That combined with complete suck ups like MikeyD and Huntaar running wild and allowed to speak officially for BFC and you have a mess.
 

Sirocco

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You might wonder why we're all still here, discussing a game we largely don't much care for, or at least think is flawed in one way or another. Indeed Steve often asks the same question on their forum. I think we're all basically waiting for the Normandy game in the hope that will be a return to form. If it isn't, if it's still flawed, if it still has the same lack of depth, then personally I wouldn't expect to still be here, posting about the series, or the company.

Aside from the game itself, what's been fascinating about CMSF is how Steve has wrestled a fiction into fact in order to justify his own poor decisions, on a design and a business level. You build a really strong market position based on the foundations of a really strong and vibrant community, and a compelling mission statement, and then you toss that all out of the window in favour of a muddled neither one thing or another strategy.

Hard to resist the urge to point a finger at that and scratch your head.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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We talk about BFC because BFC is a compelling story.

...

That combined with complete suck ups like MikeyD and Huntaar running wild and allowed to speak officially for BFC and you have a mess.
That pretty much says a lot. I don't feel inclined to justify my own participation beyond that. I have a deep-rooted interest in military history, particularly at the level that is so poorly documented - at the tactical level; hence my avatar. It's a fascinating field of study, and this hobby is one means of expression, a way to understand more about the period in an entertaining and engaging way, and also in meeting and talking to people with similar interests while broadening my own understanding.

The battlefront forum, particularly, was even more valuable than the games. I think I lament what was lost by the way that BFC treated the forum goers there even more than I do the way the game was trashed. I'm not talking about losing posting privileges, I mean the way that fans have been treated with contempt - the complete wipe of the General Forum - twice - the draconian "no URLs" rules now, and the chasing off of decent posters because of the antics of people like the ones you mention. The forum there is largely a wasteland whereas once, you could post about anything from military history to refrigerator repair, and be guaranteed a series of sensible and knowledgeable answers. It was my favourite place on the internet.
 

TacCovert4

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Kawaiku,

I do agree that the tone of current topics has digressed away from what was once the focus of these forums. Is it regrettable? Yes. I mean, we have gone through a several eras of bad posting in our history here, most notably the flamewars that happened during the POS era and during each of GSs expansions and takeovers. But those tended to have a very few posters on one side antagonizing a very few on the other, with the vast majority of posters supporting those being flamed until the flamers either became extreme enough to rate official disciplinary action or just left of their own self-righteous accord. This current round has seemed to be an open ended debate session, with the diehards (and the occasional recreational poster) either postulating or railing on BFC, and then, because BFC doesn't defend itself here, providing yet more postulation into what they probably think. Unfortunately, like I said, it tends to be open ended.

It would be wonderful if we could return to the old days, debating the best ways to take down a village full of SMG squads, or how to deal with a Hetzer-spamming player over open terrain. But with no support for the original games, and with some of us being forced by programming (d*%$ you Vista :mad:) out of the CMx1 realm, CMx2 is the game that necessity has forced us to deal with. On that tack, BFC has been ridiculous in their lack of concern or support for their customers. They released a production-level game that was best described as a poor beta version. I personally bought the initial release and then deployed, so I went 7 mos with an unplayable game (thank God I also had TacOps (oh, and thank MajorH as well)) before I was able to patch it upon my return.

Then there are the BFCites, who, by their lack of concern for legitimate customer complaints, have created a ranter's heaven. Their actions tend to remind one of Soviet era party lines.

So, in conclusion, the current trend towards BFC bashing and wishful thinking is probably going to be in force until Normandy comes out, and possibly afterward if Normandy is released in the pathetic state that Shock Force was. But, frankly, if Normandy has a poor release, I don't think BFC is going to keep it's loyal hardcore gamer base, and they cannot survive long in the mainstream market against the true heavyweights in gaming.
 

[hirr]Leto

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Kawaiku,

I do agree that the tone of current topics has digressed away from what was once the focus of these forums. Is it regrettable? Yes. I mean, we have gone through a several eras of bad posting in our history here, most notably the flamewars that happened during the POS era and during each of GSs expansions and takeovers. But those tended to have a very few posters on one side antagonizing a very few on the other, with the vast majority of posters supporting those being flamed until the flamers either became extreme enough to rate official disciplinary action or just left of their own self-righteous accord. This current round has seemed to be an open ended debate session, with the diehards (and the occasional recreational poster) either postulating or railing on BFC, and then, because BFC doesn't defend itself here, providing yet more postulation into what they probably think. Unfortunately, like I said, it tends to be open ended.

It would be wonderful if we could return to the old days, debating the best ways to take down a village full of SMG squads, or how to deal with a Hetzer-spamming player over open terrain. But with no support for the original games, and with some of us being forced by programming (d*%$ you Vista :mad:) out of the CMx1 realm, CMx2 is the game that necessity has forced us to deal with. On that tack, BFC has been ridiculous in their lack of concern or support for their customers. They released a production-level game that was best described as a poor beta version. I personally bought the initial release and then deployed, so I went 7 mos with an unplayable game (thank God I also had TacOps (oh, and thank MajorH as well)) before I was able to patch it upon my return.

Then there are the BFCites, who, by their lack of concern for legitimate customer complaints, have created a ranter's heaven. Their actions tend to remind one of Soviet era party lines.

So, in conclusion, the current trend towards BFC bashing and wishful thinking is probably going to be in force until Normandy comes out, and possibly afterward if Normandy is released in the pathetic state that Shock Force was. But, frankly, if Normandy has a poor release, I don't think BFC is going to keep it's loyal hardcore gamer base, and they cannot survive long in the mainstream market against the true heavyweights in gaming.

If you look around the web, the major gaming sites that cater to CM have pretty much degraded into other topics, opponent finders or yarn spinning. Perhaps the only one that has really kept a community going and has generated a good share of talk and activities around is WeBoB. You don't see a lot of DAR's, tactics and game discussion because it is not as engaging as it once was.

You may forget, but I tried to get some interest going here into DAR's and tactics... but that soon fell to the wayside and I just gave up on it as I was ignored, derided or given half supportive platitudes, but with no real engatgement by other people. This was all based on my wish to get community discussion back around CM type activites, games and tactics. Geordie started a tournament between WaW and Gamesquad (which WaW is going to win by default, as people mostly on the GS side, but a few on WaW flaked out on it).

Rocket Man has done some great work on scenario building, and I have contributed to the tactics section when people ask questions, but as for my time, I am limited now to the KOTH2 finals, the masters tourney, and a few games with old friends, and do not have time to post massively elaborate and entertaining DAR's anymore... nor does anyone else. With respect to POS, he may have been an old troll, but he contributed (as he had massive amounts of time due to his sitting around on the dole all day with nothing to do but dredge stuff off the internet on WW2 and post "dazzling screenshots"). But as alluded to before, this contribution was seen as a point of leverage by the old jester and he could not control his urges to Caeserly empire build, and destroy all his enemies to do so. Besides, he admittedly just loved to piss people off and tapdance in the spotlight in a Vaudevillian nightmare scene.

So to lump this all on a few posters who are a bit stuffed up at BFC, or who like me, try to get discussions going, ANY discussions going by yanking the Tiger's tail every now and then, is missing the point that they are lamenting the degradation of a "community", that is slowly sliding off of "Mt. Spaghetti, All Covered With Cheese", like the proverbial greasy meatball.


Those contributing now, are looking forward, albeit in a morose and jaded fashion at times, to the future... not many people here (outside of a few still playing and posting with CMx1 stuff like aforementioned Rocketman) are looking backward much anymore.

If I could just sing out one monumental volume of praises, I think that Steve Oveton (Mad Russian) is perhaps one of the single most progressive champions for keeping CMx1 interesting. Because of the shrinking of the communities we contribute to, he has engendered great focus of passion on the game by designers and players of the KOTH and Masters international tournies, link here: http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/index.php.

Other than this, communities have had to band around the diehard gamers that like to game and not banter (tFGM) or provide a multi-game or multi-content experience sharing wargaming with other hobbies and fetishes (world at war, The blitz, Scenario Depot, Gamesquad, etc). I will deign from elaborating on those fetishes... ahem.

Take a look at the faces that are here now and compare them to those who are now but ethereal in past temporal form...

What can be done to get people back to posting, playing and innovating around the game??? That is besides discussing the Cmx2 (in all it's blustery bullhorning).

I'm willing to hear suggestions.
 
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dalem

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We'd have a sympathetic discussion of BFC and its games and business strategy on their forums if they allowed it, but they don't. In fact they stifled or stopped that very thing there and wherever else they could. So now we're left with whining about it and, as has been said above, scratching our heads.

Kinda like you and your friends witnessing a driver on a perfectly clear and clean road calmly move over into a lane of opposite traffic and aim for a big semi truck head on. After the resultant crash and mayhem, you and your buddies are going to hit a 24 diner and talk about it for a few hours. In no small part because it's just odd.

-dale
 

dalem

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[QUOTE='[hirr]]What can be done to get people back to posting, playing and innovating around the game??? That is besides discussing the Cmx2 (in all it's blustery bullhorning).

I'm willing to hear suggestions.[/QUOTE]

For my part I took a several month break from CM but have just taken it back up again with a few PBEMs. I tend to play QBs, often random, so I don't know how much there is for me to really talk about there. I am thinking about reinstalling BB so I guess I'd need a pointer to patches at that point.

-dale
 

[hirr]Leto

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For my part I took a several month break from CM but have just taken it back up again with a few PBEMs. I tend to play QBs, often random, so I don't know how much there is for me to really talk about there. I am thinking about reinstalling BB so I guess I'd need a pointer to patches at that point.

-dale

You can find the black print patches at CMMODS (when your system on Vista interprets all written in game information in clear on clear field making it invisible. I think there are a few other patches for other things that are niggly there as well.

Cheers!

Leto
 

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Though a little BFC bashing never hurts, I have to agree with Kawaiku. Threads like the "BFC no longer answering support questions on the forum" are just... pointless.

BFC has changed its course, and the sooner you accept it the better. CMx2 Normandy might be a cool game, but it won't be the next Combat Mission. I understand why it's so emotional, chances are there will be *never* again a game which gives us the same experience as CMBB.

It would be all different if the CMx1 line wasn't dead, if we could tweak the source code like the SPMBT guys do. It's a dead end. The next Combat Mission will come from a different company, if any.
 
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