Question on HG2-2

Will Fleming

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SS2: The Italians setup as if the Greeks enter from offmap.

Does this give them the right to 'setup' bore-sighted locations?
 

Arlecchino

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Yes, because generally there's an EXC that say that bore sight are NA.
 

ecz

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Yeah, what he said. :D
... even if in ASL world "what generally happens" should be not enough for rule application purposes.

BTW the BS procedure is made during setup ( C6.42) , but it is not "set up" by itself.

Thank you for the un-official clarification.
 

Vinnie

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I feel scenario attacker and scenario defender are one of the most common misunderstandings in the game.

If you are a scenario defender then you may bore sight unless this is SSR'd out.
 

ecz

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I feel scenario attacker and scenario defender are one of the most common misunderstandings in the game.

If you are a scenario defender then you may bore sight unless this is SSR'd out.
I agree,
this the reason why this un-official answer is a little confusing.

from the index: The Scenario DEFENDER is the side that sets up wholly or partly on-board
(...) while facing an opposing side that enters wholly from Offboard


Instead the SSR says: The Italians set up as if the Greeks enter from offboard.

so I think the Italian side is not tecnhically the Defender, because it just "sets up" as if the Greeks enter from offboard.

Since Italians are not "Defender" (neither by index definition, and nor by SSR) I think they cannot BS.

Of course I take for good the un-official clarifcation coming from a member of the BFP staff, and in my game the Italians will BS everything, even if this means a lot of bookeeping (I cannot remember an all-infantry scenario where you have to pre register 17 BS locations (!), but I politely suggest a better wording of this kind of SSR next time.

Italians are the Defender and set up concealed as if the opponent began with no forces onboard
or just add to your SSR four words : The Italians set up as if the Greeks enter from offboard also for BS purpose.
 

Chas

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Well, we have been using this special rule for years without issue.

My question is, how many scenarios say "Scenario Defender" on them. I believe this would something significantly less than 1% of all published scenarios.

If one side sets up as if the other enters from offboard, the condition for "Scenario Defender" per the index is now met, AND allows the concealment setup per A12.12.
I dont know, but I believe our SBR is simple, short and makes the point.

Chas
 

ecz

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please let me explain,

I think that the SSR is "standard" enough, and most people play as Arlecchino by default, but is a fact that two players at least, and one (Fleming) - very seasoned and experienced, had the same question.

That said, looking in depth the rules as Vinnie suggests, I think that a "doubt" about BS in this scenario is possible and legitimate, expecially when you have to record 17 BS hexes.

Anyway take mine as a simple suggestion or a sort of positive criticism.
I love BFP products and I find them of very good quality :)
 
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Chas

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No issue at all. There are doubts about much in ASL, so there is no harm in confirming a clarification.

Thank you for the kind words. Expect BFP quality to remain very high:)

CHas
 

Arlecchino

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If one side sets up as if the other enters from offboard, the condition for "Scenario Defender" per the index is now met, AND allows the concealment setup per A12.12.

Chas
Is how i intended that SSR...

Anyway, i saw the game of Enrico and we talk about the difficult for the attaccker to take the hill on the bottom map because of the counterslope fire of the italian and the possibility of so many BS location on that same hill. Also Enrico talke about how is easy for the italian defend the upper paths because also an italian broken unit can slow down the greek advance. (there's also ground snow)

So i'm asking to BFP playtester some tips about this scenarios, how generally the greeks had to attack and some tips about the strategy about this scenario. ;-)
Maybe a little AAR would be fine! :-D

(You know we italians have so few good scenarios about italian that we HAD to play them all! :p)
 

Chas

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First, remember that in general the Italian SW do not have B12s, so they will start to Malf at some point.

The Greeks are basically forced to attack on both flanks. If there is enough pressure from Greek forces which are much closer, the cross valley shots should be reduced. Actually, I think the potential cross valley shots and how the Italians can set up is one of the attractions of the scenario. The tough part for the Greeks is getting established on the hill. Once they do so, however, the Italians will have a hard time stopping them from rolling. What makes it even more challenging for the Greeks is a very competent reverse slope defense on this hill.

Chas
 

Arlecchino

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Yeah, what you said is exactly what we think about that scenarios. Seem that the greeks have the hard part of the work in the very beginning! ;-)
But at least on the south the greeks have a relative short way for the VP hex. He can only AM or Prep and then simply APh. (to avoid fire at -2)
Don't run out of smoke early is also important.

Just a side question. In ground snow, brush is considered open ground, that's mean that an italian gun cannot be setup HIP in a "now openground" brush hex?

Thanks again.
 

rreinesch

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Yeah, what you said is exactly what we think about that scenarios. Seem that the greeks have the hard part of the work in the very beginning! ;-)
But at least on the south the greeks have a relative short way for the VP hex. He can only AM or Prep and then simply APh. (to avoid fire at -2)
Don't run out of smoke early is also important.

Just a side question. In ground snow, brush is considered open ground, that's mean that an italian gun cannot be setup HIP in a "now openground" brush hex?

Thanks again.
Actually the only terrain converted to Open Ground during ground snow is marsh/mudflats. Brush is still brush and is therefore still concealment terrain.

Rick
 

ecz

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as said by Arlecchino I have played this large scenario as Italian via VASL against Blindsniper.
I'm not going to make an AAR here, perhaps I'll do it in the right section of this forum later.
Now I just need to say the scenario looks very interesting, and it's one of the few that -despite its lenght and the quantity of squads- can be won or lost before setup, when you decide the general strategy for the attack or for the defense.

The VC are designed in such a way that Greeks MUST attack on both flanks.
This suggests a simple defense for Italians. Deploy a light screen of conscripts at north, in the woods-hill-village and use all your best weapons to interdict the Greek movement in the south. In fact few units can delay the Greek advance effectively at north. Also brokies helps a lot to make a human wall. Ground snow, woods and hills are a great help for the defender. More squads would not help the attacker's advances in a meningful way: the Italians only need to delay the enemy firing in the open ground key hexes (usually at PB) leaving RFP, and skulking every time is possible. They even don't need to rally when broken (its too hard), much better use the brokies to occupy hexes and slow down the enemy movement.

Two mortars and a gun should be placed in the hill of the north board to attack in OG any Greek moving in the hill at south. They have an optimal los to this hill .
Two other guns and a few of heavy SW can be placed at south, in level 4, for the greater part out of any los from any "at start" enemy position, but they can easily target any attacker crazy or desperate enough to move in the open in the level 4 hill.
A few light mortars and MGs, can be placed in the central area to guard the OG (and the woods) in case the Greek try to make an attack avoiding the woods-hill-village at north. Note the mortars and the gun in the north hill have also a los to this area and note also the big help given by the Bore Sight, (17 units capable of BS, no woods is safe from a deadly light mortar!) .

in other words I take advantage from the VCs using the 75% of the units to protect the hill in the south using also the guns placed in the north board, where a small force can delay the Greeks and make survive these guns until the endgame.
Any turn the mortars fire, the Greeks in the south cry.
Sure, the Greeks have two mortars capable to produce smoke, but no smoke can avoid most of the fire(s line) in the south hill, and if they go out of smoke by turn one, as it happenend in my game, the Greeks have no chances. Never played a scenario where I have rolled so many attacks at -2 or -1!
The blood bath ended on turn 4, when the Greeks finally surrended.

A game only is not enough to say if a scenario has a problem, of course, and I'm not saying this, but IMO the attack throught the woods-hill-village-snow-gully in the north is a true nightmare, and if the mortars deplete the smoke rounds too early the Greek will not make a single step in the south.
 
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Gunner Scott

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Hi ya-

Played this one twice, Konesta Crackdown right? My Italians used used a reverse slope defense with two guns stacked together in the woods, so granted the Greeks can lay smoke on the ridge line, but the Italian Reverse slop defense just throws them back. on the other end I had had another gun and more Italians choking up the Greek advance along the road and woods.

A very tough scenario on the Greeks I would think, granted there are lots of Greeks with a raised broken morel, but even that was not enough to to overcome the terrain and Italian strong points on map.


Scott
 

Arlecchino

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Intresting, maybe the 3 guys that won this with the Greeks and put the result on ROAR could come here and tell us how they play with the Greeks! :)

Honestly i'd some idea how to handle that kind of reverse slope italian defence, but it's really important hold the smoke for at least two turns.
Another key factor is the 9-2 leader that if stacked with 4xmmg can broke the italian strongpoint.

I'll put this on my to play list. That scenario grab my attentions. :yummy:
 
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ecz

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(...)Another key factor is the 9-2 leader that if stacked with 4xmmg can broke the italian strongpoint.
no smart Italian defender will leave a valuable target to such a killer stack, nor a setup location high enough exists to place it and gain a los to the level 4 hill (apart the ridge line, where the Italians do not have to setup more than a crew+LMG). Besides, two Italians mortars have S8, and the defender will smoke this killer stack if necessary.
 

ecz

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Hi ya-

A very tough scenario on the Greeks I would think, granted there are lots of Greeks with a raised broken morel, but even that was not enough to to overcome the terrain and Italian strong points on map.
I played it only once, but it's my opinion too.
 

Gunner Scott

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Agreed, not alot of places for the Greeks to use those guns and MG's. But I will say this, it is a fun scenario, it reminds me of Monyshot Hill but in reverse. Of course, anything BFP does is pure awesomeness, well to me at least.

Scott

no smart Italian defender will leave a valuable target to such a killer stack, nor a setup location high enough exists to place it and gain a los to the level 4 hill (apart the ridge line, where the Italians do not have to setup more than a crew+LMG). Besides, two Italians mortars have S8, and the defender will smoke this killer stack if necessary.
 
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