Question On ENEMY Vehicle Move Command 5-6 and Known Target

Steed

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
140
Reaction score
79
Location
Naugatuck, CT
First name
Walter
Country
llUnited States
OK. We're playing Tanks Attack and in the process of re-reading Stop And Go Traffic I've noticed several things we've been doing wrong concerning vehicles - not a big deal as I was expecting that.

But it's got me rethinking my understanding of other rules and I want to make sure I'm getting some of this right. So this situation came up Friday night...

14684

Germans are Friendly/Soviets are Enemy.

The tank gets a move command ( it was in Motion from the previous turn ) in the Enemy PF phase. In the movement phase we roll a 5 which starts with -

"If no Known Target exists, move along road toward FBE; otherwise REH as necessary. ...."

Looking up the definition of a Target it says -

"Target: An in-LOS, non-HIP FRIENDLY unit (non-abandoned if vehicular) or Gun that is within (long) range of an ENEMY unit that can be affected by any non-CH attack from that ENEMY unit/its functioning possessed-Weapon. The range of the ENEMY unit can be extended by any manned, functioning Weapon possessed by/carried onboard by that unit. ..."

The tank can see the German concealed HS but it's to hit modifiers (+4 {C} +1 {BU} +2 {Concealed Target} +1 {Woods} = +8 ) make it impossible to hit and the IFE equivalent of 4 would be halved 3 times ( moving, bounding, and concealed )making it less than 1. Since the German HS can't be hit or affected by the IFEE, we thought the concealed German HS is not a target so the tank should move (REH in this case) and played it that way. Is this correct?

In the past we would have turned the tank, stopped, taken the shot to gain an acquisition marker and waited for a better shot in the Enemy DF phase. But after rereading the definition of target I don't think that it is right.

Thanks.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,163
Reaction score
2,840
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Math is correct for MA firing on ITT as you'd need a CH TH the "?" unit, but the MA could fire as IFE and with the turret freely turned towards the potential target as part of the MP spent, FP would be halved and halved for a FP of 1 +1TEM +1BU so even a DR=2 (not a CH) would result in a NMC with the CA fixed for firing at an unknown target. I believe in this instance the vehicle would stop in the current hex and fire per SASL.
 

Steed

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
140
Reaction score
79
Location
Naugatuck, CT
First name
Walter
Country
llUnited States
Math is correct for MA firing on ITT as you'd need a CH TH the "?" unit, but the MA could fire as IFE and with the turret freely turned towards the potential target as part of the MP spent, FP would be halved and halved for a FP of 1 +1TEM +1BU so even a DR=2 (not a CH) would result in a NMC with the CA fixed for firing at an unknown target. I believe in this instance the vehicle would stop in the current hex and fire per SASL.
Wouldn't the FP be halved 3 times - halved for for Motion/Non-Stopped, halved as Bounding Fire, and then halved again vs a concealed unit? Looking at "Stop and Go Traffic" in the section "Firing on the Move" the second paragraph I think that's correct. What am I missing?

If it is halved 3 times then it would be less than 1, so no shot, right?

Regardless though, my logic for the move command is correct. It's just if it's halved twice or three times, if two then there's a shot and it will take it. If it's three then no shot and it moves.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,163
Reaction score
2,840
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Wouldn't the FP be halved 3 times - halved for for Motion/Non-Stopped, halved as Bounding Fire, and then halved again vs a concealed unit? Looking at "Stop and Go Traffic" in the section "Firing on the Move" the second paragraph I think that's correct. What am I missing?

If it is halved 3 times then it would be less than 1, so no shot, right?

Regardless though, my logic for the move command is correct. It's just if it's halved twice or three times, if two then there's a shot and it will take it. If it's three then no shot and it moves.
Firing as IFE they are penalized as Motion Fire only once if they spend a MP to stop (they'll not be Non-Stopped/in-Motion but will still be considered using Bounding Fire). I play ENEMY AFVs as if I were playing FRIENDLY ones as the AFV rules for SASL are really weak in trying to express what they would do (benefit of the doubt to the ENEMY). YMMV.;)
 

Steed

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
140
Reaction score
79
Location
Naugatuck, CT
First name
Walter
Country
llUnited States
Firing as IFE they are penalized as Motion Fire only once if they spend a MP to stop (they'll not be Non-Stopped/in-Motion but will still be considered using Bounding Fire). ....
Now I'm confused. The way you're describing is the way I've been doing it - halved only once. But in the article he explicitly states the FP is in fact quartered - Motion/Non-Stopped is once and Bounding fire is twice. So which is it? I'm at work so I don't have the article. I do have the rules on pdf here so during lunch I'll take a look.

.....
I play ENEMY AFVs as if I were playing FRIENDLY ones as the AFV rules for SASL are really weak in trying to express what they would do (benefit of the doubt to the ENEMY). YMMV.;)
We've been trying to play it that way also but our experience with vehicles is limited - but growing.
 

Phillip

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
61
Reaction score
77
Location
Anarchist Jurisdiction
Country
llUnited States
I think he's saying (correct me if I'm wrong please) that the AFV should spend an MP to stop and THEN fire. That way they don't pay the Motion/Non-Stopped penalty and the FP is only halved once for Bounding Fire and once for Concealed Target (so twice total).
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,163
Reaction score
2,840
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Part of the problem of understanding is that you left the "In-Motion" counter on the vehicle during its MPh. The vehicle is not In-Motion during this phase but is Non-Stopped and Moving. By expending a Stop MP the firing vehicle is neither non-stopped or "In-Motion" but must still be penalized as a Bounding Firer (Motion Fire but not as an In-Motion Firer) because it has moved or began the phase In-Motion and would be considered a moving target should it be fired upon. Phillip has it correct in that with remaining MP permitting, it would be in the best interests of the AFV to (turn its VCA if possible) spend an additional MP to stop (and/or freely swing its TCA towards the target) to engage its potential target at the greatest range possible with a possibility of having an effect upon the target.
 

Steed

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
140
Reaction score
79
Location
Naugatuck, CT
First name
Walter
Country
llUnited States
Part of the problem of understanding is that you left the "In-Motion" counter on the vehicle during its MPh. The vehicle is not In-Motion during this phase but is Non-Stopped and Moving. By expending a Stop MP the firing vehicle is neither non-stopped or "In-Motion" but must still be penalized as a Bounding Firer (Motion Fire but not as an In-Motion Firer) because it has moved or began the phase In-Motion and would be considered a moving target should it be fired upon. Phillip has it correct in that with remaining MP permitting, it would be in the best interests of the AFV to (turn its VCA if possible) spend an additional MP to stop (and/or freely swing its TCA towards the target) to engage its potential target at the greatest range possible with a possibility of having an effect upon the target.

Now I get it. I was missing that - once he stops he's not in motion nor non-stopped :oops:. Thanks!
That pic was at the very beginning of it's move so I hadn't taken the In Motion counter off yet and it still had MPs to stop.

So to recover recap it -

The tank did have a target, it would have to turn - either VCA or TCA, stop - no longer In Motion/Non-Stopped, and fire IFEE.

So I was right about my logic concerning the move command but I was wrong in not realizing that once he stops he's not in motion nor non-stopped and therefore the FP is only halved once ( and then again for the concealment - yielding 1 FP ).

It's obvious now but I totally missed it. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me.
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,163
Reaction score
2,840
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Now I get it. I was missing that - once he stops he's not in motion nor non-stopped :oops:. Thanks!
That pic was at the very beginning of it's move so I hadn't taken the In Motion counter off yet and it still had MPs to stop.

So to recover recap it -

The tank did have a target, it would have to turn - either VCA or TCA, stop - no longer In Motion/Non-Stopped, and fire IFEE.

So I was right about my logic concerning the move command but I was wrong in not realizing that once he stops he's not in motion nor non-stopped and therefore the FP is only halved once ( and then again for the concealment - yielding 1 FP ).

It's obvious now but I totally missed it. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me.
No problem as I still remember the trouble I had digesting the AFV idiosyncrasies 25-30 years ago (not to mention sometimes still today). Part of the trouble is the use of firing In-Motion and Motion Fire, in other words the word Motion, to describe two somewhat similar but actually dissimilar conditions. Perhaps even calling Motion Fire, Fire On The Move or something along those lines would have alleviated some of the confusion.
 

Steed

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
140
Reaction score
79
Location
Naugatuck, CT
First name
Walter
Country
llUnited States
I think he's saying (correct me if I'm wrong please) that the AFV should spend an MP to stop and THEN fire. That way they don't pay the Motion/Non-Stopped penalty and the FP is only halved once for Bounding Fire and once for Concealed Target (so twice total).

For got to thank you - so Thank you!
 
Top