Question for Original Squad Leader Players

madDdog67

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Do you find the defensive fire unwieldy? I can't even remember the last time I played a game of this, but I remember the whole bit about having to return counters to another hex to be a deal breaker, especially in a scenario like Guards Counterattack where there's lots of movement and defensive fire in a confined part of the map.

Has anyone "fudged" it by coming up with another solution? Just curious...I have SL, CoI, and the 3rd module (can't remember the name) sitting up on my shelf, and this is the time of year I start thinking about pulling it down and giving it another try.
 

Aries

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I never found ANY of original Squad Leader a problem actually.

I realise ASL is brutally realistic in sooooo many ways, but, sometimes a game is just fun, even if a few aspects are less than 100% when measured against the whole.

I am increasingly day dreaming about retrofitting all my ASL "stuff" back to SL conditions just so I can enjoy more faster and easier.

The dictionary doesn't have much nice to say on the origins of the word "sophisticated" either.
 
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I never found ANY of original Squad Leader a problem actually
Well, we quit learning SL because the rules were so poorly worded that it wasn't fun anymore. Alain Chabot told us to better switch over to ASL if we want to have some clear answers and we did - and the ASLRB was a MUCH better and easier way to learn. Therefore we play ASL now :laugh:
 

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Wow, it's been so long since I played OSL ("Original" Squad Leader) that I forget how the defensive fire went, but I do vaguely remember returning a bunch of moves back to originating hexes. I'll have to dig out my OSL RB to get a better picture, but will say that I really like the way that ASL handles it. There's always a lot of questions on how it works and who can fire what and when, but once you figure that out it really makes for some interesting battles. I just played ftf over the weekend and it basically came down to one last building that I was holding with a crew and a HMG vs a mass rush by several German HS/SQ. The heavy fired as much as he could, within his CA until he expended his ROF. Then the HS fired as much as he could during FPF to the point that finally they could shoot no more (but didn't break!). Later that turn, the Germans charged in for the kill in hand to hand combat. Good stuff!
 

Aries

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Sounds like you guys actually think it was ASL that became famous first :)

That, and it appears you think that Squad Leader had to deal with all the complexities of ASL in it's own simplistic way hehe.

I realise that Squad Leader had some design elements that in the fullness of time didn't satify some, but, it still comes back to "Squad Leader became famous, and without it, ASL wouldn't exist in it's supposedly superior fashion" hehe.

ASL in so many ways is just the opinionated child of the game that actually earned the fame though.
 

GJK

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Sounds like you guys actually think it was ASL that became famous first :)

That, and it appears you think that Squad Leader had to deal with all the complexities of ASL in it's own simplistic way hehe.

I realise that Squad Leader had some design elements that in the fullness of time didn't satify some, but, it still comes back to "Squad Leader became famous, and without it, ASL wouldn't exist in it's supposedly superior fashion" hehe.

ASL in so many ways is just the opinionated child of the game that actually earned the fame though.
To carry your analogy further - OSL was the perfect little child. Very manageable and fun to play with, but he was a child. As he grew older though, he become hard to control and finally became totally dysfunctional. OSL's younger brother (who jumped straight into puberty somehow) has been a graduate and a productive member of society (the wargame community) for 20 years now. :D
 

Aries

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Interestingly put :) I'll have to award you a point for putting it that way hehe.

I can concur to a point, by GI the ole game was a bit wobbly.
 

Mordrig

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Osl

I have SL, COI, and COD. I stopped at GI, just couldn't take it anymore. I love SL though, never got into ASL though, I felt it was just going too far. I mean I invested loads on money and time into SL and then they tell you "Nope, those rules and counters are no good, throw them all away and buy these new ones." I just couldn't do it, so I still play OSL occasionally. The hardest thing is finding time to play and a safe place to set it up.

This barbie gaming (buy new modules or rule sets) annoys me the worst of anything, I also play Star Fleet Battles and they have done the same to me as SL.

Defensive Fire works well if done quickly, I just place the fire counters where I want to take a shot while my opponent is moving. I don't move anything back, just resolve the attack and if there is a result to worry about then move the unit back as required.
 

Aries

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Mordrig you may well have made a good choice in some ways.

The modules delivered a lot of new boards, but even an under interested fan could print out home made boards. The new modules brought out a lot of new counters, but, in so many cases, the counters from the original 4 modules did the job.

ASL is more accurate, but, MORE accurate can be a curse as much as a blessing.

In hindsight, I don't regret buying ASL, but, in hindsight, I am also sad they just didn't release new boards, new counter sets for nations that got left out, and had left the rules mostly alone. Some of the ever increasing detail has not always been anything more than MORE detail.

Sometimes we just need new boards. Not necessarily new terrain concepts though, just new boards.

Sometimes I wonder, if it would have been better if ASL had gone commercially dead, so that no one would care if independent fans made the effort to create new offerings which likely would have been less threat to freely trade with others.

Oh well, we are told the sales figures for Starters are a solid indication of renewed interest in ASL. But, I reserve the right to discount any statement, even that one, in the absence of openly disclosed statistics (whether they are my business or not).
 
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...Defensive Fire works well if done quickly, I just place the fire counters where I want to take a shot while my opponent is moving. I don't move anything back, just resolve the attack and if there is a result to worry about then move the unit back as required.
This is how I remember playing. Even using Vassal, and moving the pieces hex by hex, allows you to pause the game, and place the markers, for later action. (As I recall.)
 

Kevin Kenneally

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Do you find the defensive fire unwieldy? I can't even remember the last time I played a game of this, but I remember the whole bit about having to return counters to another hex to be a deal breaker, especially in a scenario like Guards Counterattack where there's lots of movement and defensive fire in a confined part of the map.

Has anyone "fudged" it by coming up with another solution? Just curious...I have SL, CoI, and the 3rd module (can't remember the name) sitting up on my shelf, and this is the time of year I start thinking about pulling it down and giving it another try.
There is a supplemental rule to Rule 16 that allows for simultaneous movement and def fire.

I play that way and it works well.
 

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Well, we quit learning SL because the rules were so poorly worded that it wasn't fun anymore. Alain Chabot told us to better switch over to ASL if we want to have some clear answers and we did - and the ASLRB was a MUCH better and easier way to learn. Therefore we play ASL now :laugh:
Most definitely, by the time you got into GI Anvil of Victory, it was crazy trying to make heads and tails between which rules superceded what. Hence, the ASL rules was a Godsend. In fact, when the rules first came out I continued to play with the old SL counters set for COD and GI for some time until the replacement modules came out. Seems like a shame really to retire all those old counters anyway without a proper viking funeral, flames and all :D
 

James Taylor

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OSL vs ASL

I haven't played OSL in 20+ years.

I did the conversion to ASL when it came out, but it took me 5+ years before I really got into the game. I had only gotten up through CoI and had just started to incorporate CoD rules when ASL came out.

I definitely remember being put off by ASL, thinking... how the hell can I remember all these special cases... every dice roll needs to be checked to see if something special happens, i.e. eyes, boxcars, doubles, rate of fire, etc. And the charts... omigod the charts. ASL just bleeds them.

I know the feeling about the counters. *sniff* some of them never even made it out of the trees.

But I've been playing ASL pretty regularly for about 16 years and I can tell you it has been an abosolute JOY!

IMHO I don't think ASL is so much more accurate than OSL, but it is definitely better organized ruleswise. In fact there are a few times us ASL'ers reminisce over some OSL rules.

But, I think ASL was an attempt to stop the cycle of issuing new rulebooks and counters, etc. that had been established with the OSL series.

To a certain extent it has achieved this goal. There are rules changes, but these led to pages that got put into the binder... and the 2nd Edition printing was more due to the fact that there was NO RB to buy.

I still use my counters from my original Beyond Valor module... they have not been made obsolete over the life of ASL. That is pretty impressive when you think about it. I also brought over some counters from OSL (leaders and panzerfaust) that I use occasionally.

Lastly, someone mentioned Starfleet Battles. I'm also an old SFB player and I think THAT game has gone through its changes more simply to make money by getting players to upgrade than OSL-ASL.

I got the "Doomsday" rulebook, but I *think* the last I checked that has been subsequently superceded. I guess doomsday has come to the SFB universe.

JT
 

Mordrig

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I haven't played OSL in 20+ years.

I got the "Doomsday" rulebook, but I *think* the last I checked that has been subsequently superceded. I guess doomsday has come to the SFB universe.

JT
Yes, I too went through the rule changes for SFB. I bought the pocket pack SFB games, then the boxed set, then all the additional changes, then Doomsday, then said ENOUGH!!! Like SL I have stopped buying SFB, and like SL SFB now sits on the shelf and is little played.
 

fropa98

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Re: Osl

This barbie gaming (buy new modules or rule sets) annoys me the worst of anything,...
Barbie gaming?...that's a brilliant way to explain buying all those ASL modules and third party products to a less than understanding wife. If she did the same thing with the doll as a child of course.
 
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There is a supplemental rule to Rule 16 that allows for simultaneous movement and def fire.

I play that way and it works well.
That's how we always played since the 1980s. It is more or less like the sequence in ASL.


Something like ASL would have eventually come about anyways, if only for the tournament environment. It just got too crazy with Crescendo of Doom and G.I. The Squad Leader/Cross of Iron rules environment was sort of the pinnacle of pre-ASL: the perfect compromise between playability and realistic detail.

Personally, I don't feel that ASL is necessarily the better game of the two, but it is still supported, etc. For that reason alone, I finally broke down and invested in ASL this summer.
 

ThePrimeMover

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Talk about luddites stuck in the past! You move units back? Must be great fun to remember 20 counters and their route.
Some decide to shoot at the moveing units - welcome to ASL

dumb
 

aiabx

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Man.. I don't even remember how I managed defensive fire in OSL. I just remember thinking how much ASL made the game better when I tried it.
 
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