Question about Heroic Leaders

[ASL Maineiac]

I thought the question was good stuff from being a heroic leader. Not breaking ... that can be bad, very bad.

Why can not breaking be bad??

 

[Jazz]

Why can not breaking be bad??

Because instead of breaking, he may die if he fails a MC.

Without the SSR, he (heroic leader) would die automatically on the 2nd wound (failing a MC at ML 8).

 

[Jon]

Thanks Mr. Incredible. So, a back-to-basics question. Here's how the SSR is written: ""The Russian 8-1 leader is Heroic, and suffers Wound Severity as a Leader (A17.11) rather than as a Hero (A15.2).""
What happens when this heroic 8-1 fails a MC? Does it break like a leader or just weaken, but can still move, like a hero?

He suffers wound severity as a Leader...so...the 1st time he fails a MC he wounds, and a normal Wound severity DR is made...the second, and subsequent failures of MC's he ROLLS for Wound severity as a Leader with a +1 DRM for being wounded already, instead of being eliminated as a Hero.

Sorry Fort, but I don't agree with what you wrote, based on the SSR as provided.
"suffers Wound Severity as a Leader (A17.11), rather then as a Hero (A15.2)"

So lets look at A17.11 first
"Whenevr a SMC is wounded, another dr must be immediately made to determine the severity of the wound. On a dr of 5 or 6, the wound... is treated as a KIA instead. On a dr of 1-4 the wound is minor. A wounded man who is wounded again must add +41 to his Wound Severity dr"

OK, so this describes what happens when a SMC is wounded, eg by a K# result on a SMC, a hero failing a MC

Now looking at A15.2
"If it fails a MC, the hero is considered wopunded ....and must undergo a Wound Severity dr (A17.11). If the Wounded hero fails a MC, it is eliminated"

Now going by the SSR as written, it is two parted.
The 8-1 Leader is heroic.
It will have a ML of 9, and IFP of 1FP with a normal range of 4 hexes, a heroic DRM which it can use as per A15.24 or he can be used as a normal leader with a -1 leadership
and suffers Wound Severity as a Leader (A17.11) rather than as a hero (A15.2)
By this A15.2 is NA. I would take this as if it fails a MC it is broken as a normal leader (even though he is heroic) and can rally back again. So he only suffers Wounds and wound Severity as if a Leader, i.e by things that would Wound a Leader such as a casualty reduction result, a 2 Sniper attack etc

Cheers
Jon

 

[Larry]

There is a difference between suffers wounds as a leader and suffers wound severity as a leader. If the SSR said suffers wounds as a leader, or breaks as a leader, Jon would have a point. But the leader is a hero and wounds like a hero, on a K or break. Severity though is as a leader, i.e. if already wounded he gets to roll with the +1.

 

[ASL Maineiac]

Oh jeez. Now I'm really confused....does my heroic 8-1 break like a leader and roll a wound severity dr like a leader? Or does he not break like a hero, but rolls a wound severity dr like a leader? Or some other variation thereof...

 

[Honus]

That +41 drm to the wound severity dr is pretty severe.

 

[Mr Incredible]

I would say he wounds.

If wounded he wounds again with a +1 mod.

:ciao:

 

[ASL Maineiac]

That +41 drm to the wound severity dr is pretty severe.

Ouch - that wasn't the money wound he hoped would send him home...

 

[MajorDomo]

Well your hero provides benefits to Fire Group. He is stealthy; which helps in Ambush and with concealment gain. In Searches, a concealed defending heroic -1 leader subtracts two from the Casualty DR. He is also better at firing several SWs.

Rich

 

[Carln0130]

The wounds like a leader ssr means, to my understanding anyway, that due to him being a hero, if he fails morale he has to check for a wound. If he fails morale again, he does not die like a hero, he just checks for the wound severity, in this case like a wounded leader since this assumes he is already wounded, not auto dead like a wounded hero who fails morale. Never seen it played any other way and I am fairly positive that was the effect Tom was after. However to be sure, I'll try to canvas him for further comment.

 

[ASL Maineiac]

The wounds like a leader ssr means, to my understanding anyway, that due to him being a hero, if he fails morale he has to check for a wound. If he fails morale again, he does not die like a hero, he just checks for the wound severity, in this case like a wounded leader since this assumes he is already wounded, not auto dead like a wounded hero who fails morale. Never seen it played any other way and I am fairly positive that was the effect Tom was after. However to be sure, I'll try to canvas him for further comment.

That sounds simple and right. I think I was overthinking it. He's a hero, so a failed MC means he wounds and doesn't break, but he wounds like a leader, so after the initial wound he just adds the +1 to all subsequent wound severity drs

 

[Fort]

Sorry Fort, but I don't agree with what you wrote, based on the SSR as provided.
"suffers Wound Severity as a Leader (A17.11), rather then as a Hero (A15.2)"

So lets look at A17.11 first
"Whenevr a SMC is wounded, another dr must be immediately made to determine the severity of the wound. On a dr of 5 or 6, the wound... is treated as a KIA instead. On a dr of 1-4 the wound is minor. A wounded man who is wounded again must add +41 to his Wound Severity dr"

OK, so this describes what happens when a SMC is wounded, eg by a K# result on a SMC, a hero failing a MC

Now looking at A15.2
"If it fails a MC, the hero is considered wopunded ....and must undergo a Wound Severity dr (A17.11). If the Wounded hero fails a MC, it is eliminated"

Now going by the SSR as written, it is two parted.
The 8-1 Leader is heroic.
It will have a ML of 9, and IFP of 1FP with a normal range of 4 hexes, a heroic DRM which it can use as per A15.24 or he can be used as a normal leader with a -1 leadership
and suffers Wound Severity as a Leader (A17.11) rather than as a hero (A15.2)
By this A15.2 is NA. I would take this as if it fails a MC it is broken as a normal leader (even though he is heroic) and can rally back again. So he only suffers Wounds and wound Severity as if a Leader, i.e by things that would Wound a Leader such as a casualty reduction result, a 2 Sniper attack etc

Cheers
Jon

Q. What happens when a Hero (or Heroic Leader) fails a MC?

A. It becomes wounded....and makes a dr for wound severity.

(looking at SSR...Nothing is mentioned about the Heroic Leader failing MC's as a non-Heroic leader, so he MUST fail MC's as a Hero...therefore he DOES NOT break, but must take a Wound Severity check dr.)

Q What happens: 1- when an unwounded Hero (or Heroic Leader) fails a MC? 2-when an already wounded Hero (or Heroic Leader) fails a MC?

A. 1- He must make a Wound Severity dr, if he rolls a 5 or 6 he is eliminated otherwise he is wounded.
A. 2-He is eliminated.

Q What happens: 1- when an unwounded Leader fails a MC? 2-when an already wounded Leader fails a MC?

A. 1- He Breaks.
A. 2- He breaks.

Q What happens: 1- when an unwounded Leader is wounded? 2-when an already wounded Leader is Wounded?

A. 1- He must make a Wound Severity dr, if he rolls a 5 or 6 he is eliminated otherwise he is wounded.
A. 1- He must make a Wound Severity dr, if he rolls a 4, 5 or 6 he is eliminated otherwise he remains wounded.

Therefore, this SSR is an attempt to allow the leader to not AUTOMATICALLY be eliminated for failing a second MC or whatever else would cause a second wound Heroic elimination during the course of the scenario.

 

[Jon]

You guys may be correct and i don't know what the designer's intent was.

However, Wound Severity is the entire section of A17.11, which includes when a SMC is wounded for the fist time, and will die on a wound Severity dr of 5 or 6

Likewise A15.2 is an entiure section, where it states that a hero or heroic leader that fails a MC is wounded, and if wounded a 2nd time is eliminated

Now the SSR says suffers Wound Severity as a Leader rather then as a hero, with references to A17.11 and A15.2. So by the SSR, the heroic leader will not Wound as per A15.2. In effect A15.2 is NA when it comes to wounding.

Some of the Schwerpunkt SSRs in the medal of honor and VC issues use an SSR that says " the leader is heroic but suffers wounds as a leader rather then as a hero". In this case it is clear that the heroic leader in these SP scenarios will break on failing a MC rather then Wound

Maybe the VotG designer wanted the same effect

I'll await to see what carl gets back from the designer

Cheers
Jon

 

[Fort]

You guys may be correct and i don't know what the designer's intent was.

However, Wound Severity is the entire section of A17.11, which includes when a SMC is wounded for the fist time, and will die on a wound Severity dr of 5 or 6

Likewise A15.2 is an entiure section, where it states that a hero or heroic leader that fails a MC is wounded, and if wounded a 2nd time is eliminated

Now the SSR says suffers Wound Severity as a Leader rather then as a hero, with references to A17.11 and A15.2. So by the SSR, the heroic leader will not Wound as per A15.2. In effect A15.2 is NA when it comes to wounding.

Some of the Schwerpunkt SSRs in the medal of honor and VC issues use an SSR that says " the leader is heroic but suffers wounds as a leader rather then as a hero". In this case it is clear that the heroic leader in these SP scenarios will break on failing a MC rather then Wound

Maybe the VotG designer wanted the same effect

I'll await to see what carl gets back from the designer

Cheers
Jon

You are missing the point.

The SSR says nothing about Morale Checks. It only addresses Wound Severity.

When a Heroic leader fails a MC it is Wounded.

When a wounded Heroic leader fails a Morale check it is eliminated.

This SSR ONLY address Wound Severity...and changes the Heroic Leader is elmininated on a subsequent wound to, the Heroic Leader makes a Wound Severity dr with a +1 drm for already being wounded (as do non-Heroic Leaders).

This SSR changes NOTHING about Heroes being unable to break.

And the SP SSR you mention " the leader is heroic but suffers wounds as a leader rather then as a hero" means EXACTLY the same thing. A Hero CANNOT break...and neither of these SSR's change that fact. They can wound, and the SSR changes how they Wound...not the fact that they DO NOT BREAK.

 

[Jon]

Hi

And the SP SSR you mention " the leader is heroic but suffers wounds as a leader rather then as a hero" means EXACTLY the same thing. A Hero CANNOT break...and neither of these SSR's change that fact. They can wound, and the SSR changes how they Wound...not the fact that they DO NOT BREAK.

"wounds as a eader rather then as a hero"

Q: Does a leader wound if it fails a MC
A: No

So in the SP scenarios, the heroic leader will break if it fails a MC. It will not wound since a leader doesn't wound when it fails a MC

It doesn't matter that in the normal rules a heroic leader wounds if it fails a MC. The SSR overrides the normal rules. TSee the Index for SSR. That is the whole point of SSRs


However, I can see your point on the VotG scenario. I'll wait to see what carlN comes back with

Cheers
Jon

 

[Fort]

Hi




"wounds as a eader rather then as a hero"

Q: Does a leader wound if it fails a MC
A: No

So in the SP scenarios, the heroic leader will break if it fails a MC. It will not wound since a leader doesn't wound when it fails a MC

It doesn't matter that in the normal rules a heroic leader wounds if it fails a MC. The SSR overrides the normal rules. TSee the Index for SSR. That is the whole point of SSRs


However, I can see your point on the VotG scenario. I'll wait to see what carlN comes back with

Cheers
Jon

The SP SSR most emphatically DOES NOT STATE that a Heroic Leaders Breaks....not anywhere. You are reading it completly incorrect.

If the scenario designer wanted the SSR to work as you state, it would have been worded somewhat thusly;

"When failing a MC, the Heroic Leader does not suffer wounds instead of breaking, instead it breaks as would a non-Heroic leader".

What it says is as follows: a Heroic leader WOUNDS differently than it normally would...this MEANS it does not automatically die when a second wound occurs.

"wounds as a leader rather then as a hero"

This line has nothing to do with how the Heroic Leader fails MC's. It has everything to do with WHEN it fails a MC, and being Heroic instead wounds, the Leader does not automatically die from the second wound as he normally would without the SSR...instead he WOUNDS as a LEADER, and gets to roll a die for severity EACH time he is wounded.

You are reading way too much into this simple SSR.

I suggest you ask Evan Sherry what his intent was, he is easy to reach.

Again..."wounding as a leader" does not equal "ignore MC wounding when failing a MC if Heroic".

 

[Bret Hildebran]

For what little it's worth, I agree with Fort's interpretation on these wound SSRs. The Heroic leaders in question still wound, they just don't automatically die on a 2nd wound like a normal hero would...

 

[Larry]

I just realized that I have played heroes wrong. I think I have always lifted them on the second wound. But if the second would is from a sniper 2 or a K result, the hero gets to roll with the obligatory +1. Only on the break after a wound is he auto-toast.

 

[Fort]

Evan's reply to my question:

"Gary,

The intent of the SSR is that the Heroic Leader will suffer a wound rather than break. If the heroic leader is subsequently wounded, it is not automatically eliminated, but rather must roll for wound severity with the +1 drm just like a non-heroic leader.
I included such SSRs in the MOH and Victoria Cross issues because the existing rules could not adequately portray the more extraordinary feats of heroism that was needed.

Thanks for your question,
Evan Sherry"

 

[Jon]

Evan's reply to my question:

"Gary,

The intent of the SSR is that the Heroic Leader will suffer a wound rather than break. If the heroic leader is subsequently wounded, it is not automatically eliminated, but rather must roll for wound severity with the +1 drm just like a non-heroic leader.
I included such SSRs in the MOH and Victoria Cross issues because the existing rules could not adequately portray the more extraordinary feats of heroism that was needed.

Thanks for your question,
Evan Sherry"

Fair enough

That is not how the SSR reads however . Wounds as a leader means wounds as if it is a aleader

Especially when it could have been written "The x-x leader is heroic (EXC:if already wounded, A15.2 is NA; apply A17.11 as if this wounded hero is a leader)

Also I find it a bit strange that if the intent is to model the incredible heroism needed, that the heroic leaders that are a feature of these scenarios will die exactly the same as a normal hero on their FIRST failed MC

And how many times has yuor hero or 9-2 leader failed a MC from a 2FP +1 shot. Mine always do


Another thing learnt is that a Wounded hero is NOT automatically eliminated for a 2nd wound due to a 2 sniper attack, or from a a casualty reduction result on the IFT or in CC
The automatic elimination in A15.2 only applies to a wounded hero who fails a MC

Thanks for the lessons learnt

Cheers
Jon