"Quality in ASL": Some Desperation Morale Spelunking

hongkongwargamer

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Thanks Jackson, I appreciate what you did above, Tom thinks this is really nit-picking, this entire industry has text that is hard on the eyes for older folks at times. The boxes are irrelevant and just a design I went for to differentiate me from AH and then MMP.

I like Mark's blog as well, he does a nice job and as I said, is an asset to the community.

I just as soon drop this subject, more tempest in a teapot at this point.

Let's all pull in the same direction, I will continue to try to make the newsletter as readable as I can and will continue to visit Desperation Morale, Vic.
WILCO
 

Michael Dorosh

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Tom thinks this is really nit-picking, this entire industry has text that is hard on the eyes for older folks at times.
Tom is wrong, frankly. The samples Jackson posted above shows DftB is receptive to feedback and has improved its layout for the better.

I will continue to try to make the newsletter as readable as I can
For which you deserve great credit. Owning your own bully pulpit, as Pitcavage does, provides a man opportunities that also come with responsibilities. As a social liberal, Mark often forgets the latter in his zeal to exploit the former.
 

Vic Provost

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The last thing I want is conflict, except on an ASL board. I'm here to help those in this hobby, I think that is Mark's bottom line as well.

The best thing will be rolling real dice in the not too distant future, with my very best ASL friends, Vic.
 

wrongway149

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From Mark's Blog:
  • Individual Scenario Variety. The more the scenarios in a product seem similar to each other, the more monotonous playing the scenarios of a product tends to be. Lack of scenario variety can show up in a number of ways. First, in scenario sizes. If most or all of the scenarios in a product are large, long and meaty, there may not be much appeal to a player who doesn’t have the time or preference for such scenarios. If there are small, medium, and large scenarios in a product, there may be more options to fit a player’s particular inclinations or circumstances. Similarly, if all scenarios are designed for advanced players, or all for beginners, that may be somewhat disappointing. In products with historical maps, a too-high concentration of scenarios set on certain map areas and reduce the fun of a historical map. And products can seem especially bland if their scenarios tend to have similar victory conditions, SSRs, setups and reinforcements, and so forth.
An excellent observation, Mark - and I can tell you this is quite challenging, especially when doing 'Themed' packs. For example, I am working on an Action Pack on the adventures of US First Cavalry Division in WWII and Korea. There are only three WWII PTO scenarios due to the fact that most of their activity on Leyte would be what we call 'bug hunts' (and thier work in Manila is covered in another product). This type of scenario is rather stale by now, and I don't want to exhaust the few tricks I have that can make these battles more interesting -as even the tricks look like each other after a while. So we move to Korea- in which a good chunk of the action takes place on hills!! And more often than not, the hills were the actual objectives. How many times can I do that without it seeming samey? What I CAN do is balance the action between US forces attacking and defending, and split it again between the opponent being the Chinese CVPA and North Korean NKPA. I want to limit the night actions, so those which are documented as taking place during daylight received priority. Some still looked too similar with T-34/85 and SU-76s being the only non-US AFVs. So I vary the size and scope a bit, and include two actions which the First Team fought side-by-side with Allies such as the ROK army and Greek Battalion. I made sure there is a DASL scenario and that ~25% are 'pop and play' -- no heavy SSRs or lengthy search for obscure overlays required -just grab your maps and some counters and get to it. And of course there will be some for the expert players that want more of a challenge or like to think about set up for a few days beforehand. So they might look similar from photos, but in reality will be a good mix. There is one that uses CVPA but yet is simple enough to serve as an 'introduction' to thier special rules, and one (possibly) that uses boats.

I also made myself a rule to not use any map more than two times throughout the product.

Luckily the topic chosen offers these opportunities, and I was able to find enough material for up to 16 scenarios without being too repetitive (IMO). And I have some excellent playtesters who would tell me if it were so. I think most of you will find good value in it, much like the ASLOk bocage pack recently published.
.
 
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Old Noob

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A rough estimate as to when it will be submitted for MMP's approval?
 

Actionjick

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From Mark's Blog:
  • Individual Scenario Variety. The more the scenarios in a product seem similar to each other, the more monotonous playing the scenarios of a product tends to be. Lack of scenario variety can show up in a number of ways. First, in scenario sizes. If most or all of the scenarios in a product are large, long and meaty, there may not be much appeal to a player who doesn’t have the time or preference for such scenarios. If there are small, medium, and large scenarios in a product, there may be more options to fit a player’s particular inclinations or circumstances. Similarly, if all scenarios are designed for advanced players, or all for beginners, that may be somewhat disappointing. In products with historical maps, a too-high concentration of scenarios set on certain map areas and reduce the fun of a historical map. And products can seem especially bland if their scenarios tend to have similar victory conditions, SSRs, setups and reinforcements, and so forth.
An excellent observation, Mark - and I can tell you this is quite challenging, especially when doing 'Themed' packs. For example, I am working on an Action Pack on the adventures of US First Cavalry Division in WWII and Korea. There are only three WWII PTO scenarios due to the fact that most of their activity on Leyte would be what we call 'bug hunts' (and thier work in Manila is covered in another product). This type of scenario is rather stale by now, and I don't want to exhaust the few tricks I have that can make these battles more interesting -as even the tricks look like each other after a while. So we move to Korea- in which a good chunk of the action takes place on hills!! And more often than not, the hills were the actual objectives. How many times can I do that without it seeming samey? What I CAN do is balance the action between US forces attacking and defending, and split it again between the opponent being the Chinese CVPA and North Korean NKPA. I want to limit the night actions, so those which are documented as taking place during daylight received priority. Some still looked too similar with T-34/85 and SU-76s being the only non-US AFVs. So I vary the size and scope a bit, and include two actions which the First Team fought side-by-side with Allies such as the ROK army and Greek Battalion. I made sure there is a DASL scenario and that ~25% are 'pop and play' -- no heavy SSRs or lengthy search for obscure overlays required -just grab your maps and some counters and get to it. And of course there will be some for the expert players that want more of a challenge or like to think about set up for a few days beforehand. So they might look similar from photos, but in reality will be a good mix. There is one that uses CVPA but yet is simple enough to serve as an 'introduction' to thier special rules, and one (possibly) that uses boats.

I also made myself a rule to not use any map more than two times throughout the product.

Luckily the topic chosen offers these opportunities, and I was able to find enough material for up to 16 scenarios without being too repetitive (IMO). And I have some excellent playtesters who would tell me if it were so. I think most of you will find good value in it, much like the ASLOk bocage pack recently published.
.
Interesting to see what goes into a designer's thinking when planning a project that contains a large number of scenarios. Good luck with the project.

Fish would be pleased to see that you used ASLOk with the lower case k.🤗
 

wrongway149

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Interesting to see what goes into a designer's thinking when planning a project that contains a large number of scenarios. Good luck with the project.

Fish would be pleased to see that you used ASLOk with the lower case k.🤗
I think we're the only ones left. Screw the DH too, while I'm at it!!!!
 

Tuomo

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I also made myself a rule to not use any map more than two times throughout the product.
Advance Warning to the ASL Community At Large - Pete is on another one of his Gnarl Kicks. I give him a map that's tough for armor to negotiate and he kicks it back, cursing my "soft-hearted attempts to cater to the masses" and demanding More Gnarl. I'm like, "Pete, ya canna do that to the Good People Out There - it'll break their brains!" But Pete's cold, cold heart is not to be swayed, and he points to Section 43(b), Subsection 17, Paragraph 3 of my contract, wherein I don't get paid unless "the scenario designer is made happy with the map, regardless of The Map Artist's reservations concerning brain damage to the public."

So on we go.
 

Actionjick

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Advance Warning to the ASL Community At Large - Pete is on another one of his Gnarl Kicks. I give him a map that's tough for armor to negotiate and he kicks it back, cursing my "soft-hearted attempts to cater to the masses" and demanding More Gnarl. I'm like, "Pete, ya canna do that to the Good People Out There - it'll break their brains!" But Pete's cold, cold heart is not to be swayed, and he points to Section 43(b), Subsection 17, Paragraph 3 of my contract, wherein I don't get paid unless "the scenario designer is made happy with the map, regardless of The Map Artist's reservations concerning brain damage to the public."

So on we go.
Ya canna blame the poor laddie! Those bitter winter winds a whippin' across a frozen Lake Erie from Canada enuff ta freeze the heart of any scenario designer from Cleveland. 😉😉
 

wrongway149

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Advance Warning to the ASL Community At Large - Pete is on another one of his Gnarl Kicks. I give him a map that's tough for armor to negotiate and he kicks it back, cursing my "soft-hearted attempts to cater to the masses" and demanding More Gnarl. I'm like, "Pete, ya canna do that to the Good People Out There - it'll break their brains!" But Pete's cold, cold heart is not to be swayed, and he points to Section 43(b), Subsection 17, Paragraph 3 of my contract, wherein I don't get paid unless "the scenario designer is made happy with the map, regardless of The Map Artist's reservations concerning brain damage to the public."

So on we go.
But Korean gnarl is different than Normandy gnarl.
 

Vic Provost

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DH. Designated Hitter? I'm with you there!! 😉😉🤗🤗
The DH is here to say, sadly for some as the loss of strategy is a big trade-off in not seeing pathetic pitchers trying to hit.

I play Strat-O-Matic and there is no worse group of cards than the pitchers hitting cards for recent seasons, no wonder they kill any rally they are in, the bunt is their best weapon to do anything positive most of the time. I saw David Ortiz kill major league pitching for the 13 years he played with the Red Sox, I would much rather see him with a bat in his hands at the plate than any pitcher. I think what really tilts it for MLB is how much money is invested in those arms and the many bad things that can happen to them with a bat in their hand or on the bases, when they actually get there. Time marches on, we can't go back to before 1970 anymore, it is just a matter of time before the NL caves on this. I have ambivalent feelings on this still.

Sorry for the off-topic baseball, no more on it from me, Vic.
 

Actionjick

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The DH is here to say, sadly for some as the loss of strategy is a big trade-off in not seeing pathetic pitchers trying to hit.

I play Strat-O-Matic and there is no worse group of cards than the pitchers hitting cards for recent seasons, no wonder they kill any rally they are in, the bunt is their best weapon to do anything positive most of the time. I saw David Ortiz kill major league pitching for the 13 years he played with the Red Sox, I would much rather see him with a bat in his hands at the plate than any pitcher. I think what really tilts it for MLB is how much money is invested in those arms and the many bad things that can happen to them with a bat in their hand or on the bases, when they actually get there. Time marches on, we can't go back to before 1970 anymore, it is just a matter of time before the NL caves on this. I have ambivalent feelings on this still.

Sorry for the off-topic baseball, no more on it from me, Vic.
We played tons of strat--o. Connerski City Chiefs vs Java Junction Jicks. Fish would go to the company's Opening Day. Fun game!
 

Actionjick

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The DH is here to say, sadly for some as the loss of strategy is a big trade-off in not seeing pathetic pitchers trying to hit.

I play Strat-O-Matic and there is no worse group of cards than the pitchers hitting cards for recent seasons, no wonder they kill any rally they are in, the bunt is their best weapon to do anything positive most of the time. I saw David Ortiz kill major league pitching for the 13 years he played with the Red Sox, I would much rather see him with a bat in his hands at the plate than any pitcher. I think what really tilts it for MLB is how much money is invested in those arms and the many bad things that can happen to them with a bat in their hand or on the bases, when they actually get there. Time marches on, we can't go back to before 1970 anymore, it is just a matter of time before the NL caves on this. I have ambivalent feelings on this still.

Sorry for the off-topic baseball, no more on it from me, Vic.
You can continue baseball on the Shanghaid thread if you like. That's what it's there for.😉
 

wrongway149

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The DH is here to say, sadly for some as the loss of strategy is a big trade-off in not seeing pathetic pitchers trying to hit.

I play Strat-O-Matic and there is no worse group of cards than the pitchers hitting cards for recent seasons, no wonder they kill any rally they are in, the bunt is their best weapon to do anything positive most of the time. I saw David Ortiz kill major league pitching for the 13 years he played with the Red Sox, I would much rather see him with a bat in his hands at the plate than any pitcher. I think what really tilts it for MLB is how much money is invested in those arms and the many bad things that can happen to them with a bat in their hand or on the bases, when they actually get there. Time marches on, we can't go back to before 1970 anymore, it is just a matter of time before the NL caves on this. I have ambivalent feelings on this still.

Sorry for the off-topic baseball, no more on it from me, Vic.
Well being that position players hitting under .200 will likely make it to the all-star ballot, I say - let the pitchers hit!!
At least it's over quickly, instead of fouling back 5 third strikes-- only to whiff or walk in the end. :(
 
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Tuomo

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With maps, whether hardcopy or VASL, part of quality (to me) is spending time on details that aren't obvious. Charlie Kibler's maps, especially the buildings, have details that aren't even particularly necessary from a game standpoint, but are there because he wanted to take the time to make them look good. You may not even notice them unless your gaze is wandering over the map while you wait for your opponent to make up their mind about something, but when you do see something small and unnecessary but cool and fun, it's a nice reminder that somebody cared to impress you. It takes a long time to make those things look effortless, and Charlie's got it down cold.

I imagine a lot of quality-related things are less visible than that - the extra historical source that was referenced, the extra round of play testing, etc.
 

Michael Dorosh

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but when you do see something small and unnecessary but cool and fun, it's a nice reminder that somebody cared to impress you.
I never got the impression that Charlie is out to impress anyone or draw attention to himself, so much as just satisfying his own desire to do great work. He always seems to be about getting details right (as you point out, he has a great eye for detail). Some people would dismiss that as rivet-counting, but I get the feeling for him, getting it "right" is the fun. If we happen to notice, that's a bonus.

I imagine a lot of quality-related things are less visible than that - the extra historical source that was referenced, the extra round of play testing, etc.
Yes, unless the designer draws attention to it. That is definitely the style of some, and perhaps understandably. However, it's not really what I think of when I think of Charlie.

I would love to see him do a treatise on some of his "process" though, and some of the behind-the-scenes stuff. I still have a copy of the memo that Mark Nixon posted here talking about why there is a gully on one of the BV city boards. Not sure how many others would rather see that in the Journal, though, as opposed to game-play, AARs, etc. For me, it's fascinating.
 

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I would love to see him do a treatise on some of his "process" though, and some of the behind-the-scenes stuff. I still have a copy of the memo that Mark Nixon posted here talking about why there is a gully on one of the BV city boards. Not sure how many others would rather see that in the Journal, though, as opposed to game-play, AARs, etc. For me, it's fascinating.
I would love to see Charlie share some of his insights and would also be curious about the Mark Nixon post you mention.
 
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