Proposals for 3.4(b)

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
The figures are based upon whatever actual figures we could find - SkyVon did a LOT of research on this aspect.

There are also some unhistorical production schedules to allow for the continued existence of units that start with very early models at the top of their list, and which wouldn't reconstitute otherwise, plus schedules to allow - for example - the French fighting on longer than 1940.

I think the problem here is that in high proficiency units like the RAF and the Luftwaffe, a very high percentage of planes 'destroyed' are actually returned to the Replacement Pool - this is a function of the game engine.

I should say that, while it may seem stupid to have a mighty stockpile of airframes in the Replacement Pool, I have played many games through to the end and, all other things being equal, the balance of air power will broadly follow the historical path. So, although by the end of the war the German player may have the same number of air units still in play, they will be evaporated or forced into reorganisation almost every turn in the face of the Allied air units, and the Allies will be able to make airdrops, Interdiction strikes, bridge attacks &etc., and will have a far greater level of Combat Support. Since I know that this is the case I would be very reluctant to tinker with the air units Replacement Schedule.

If anyone has found that this isn't the case, do let me know.
 

Lou

Event Engineer
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
Location
Rockford, Il
Country
llUnited States
Mark Stevens said:
To be consistent, ban the regular Luftwaffe from operating from airfields in the area and create a 'Desert' Luftwaffe Air Corps with units appearing on a similar basis?

Or would this lead to the British, with nothing else to do after the Fall of France, similarly swamping the area with troops and wiping out the Axis forces there in pretty short order?
Maybe The German could use the 'Desert' Luftwaffe Air Corps Plus one other additional Air Unit if additional aircraft were desired. But the restriction is the same as with the Land units. Would provide an AF rest opportunity....

If the Brits swamp him the the Battle of Britain was not even faked.

Plus the idea provides a reason to MAYBE keep Italy neutral.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
shadow said:
Will there be similar restrictions on the number of Italian units in Africa?

Since sea invasions will be required much more than they are now, will there be any additional "sea assault" type units added?
No, as the problem we're trying to address is the shipping of an unrealistically large number of the relatively high proficiency German units to the Middle East, which is enough to unbalance the whole scenario. The Italians did have an enormous number of troops in Africa (over half a million in 1940, subsequently reinforced) and for the purposes of the scenario they are relatively weak. Given likely Allied naval superiority in the Mediterranean they need to retain some strong corps on the Italian mainland and Sicily. If every single Italian mobile unit is shipped to the Middle East, Germany would need to garrison the country, which would be a waste of high proficiency units urgently needed on the Eastern Front. Even if the Italians do risk shipping the majority of their mobile units over to the Middle East I don't think that it will have the same effect as the Germans sending a similar number.

I won't add more sea assault type units as I don't think there were many. The Axis never really developed a serious sea assault capability. They took Norway's harbours more-or-less by surprise, Crete with an airborne drop, and failed to invade Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus or the United Kingdom.

This suggestion will make it difficult for the Axis to take a properly garrisoned Gibraltar and Malta, which is right.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Lou said:
Maybe The German could use the 'Desert' Luftwaffe Air Corps Plus one other additional Air Unit if additional aircraft were desired. But the restriction is the same as with the Land units. Would provide an AF rest opportunity....
You're right, we've already got a Luftwaffe 'Mediterranean' formation - just need to recolour it and mobilise it when Italy enters the war.
 

Karri

Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
600
Reaction score
0
Location
Malta
Country
llMalta
Mark Stevens said:
The figures are based upon whatever actual figures we could find - SkyVon did a LOT of research on this aspect.

There are also some unhistorical production schedules to allow for the continued existence of units that start with very early models at the top of their list, and which wouldn't reconstitute otherwise, plus schedules to allow - for example - the French fighting on longer than 1940.

I think the problem here is that in high proficiency units like the RAF and the Luftwaffe, a very high percentage of planes 'destroyed' are actually returned to the Replacement Pool - this is a function of the game engine.

I should say that, while it may seem stupid to have a mighty stockpile of airframes in the Replacement Pool, I have played many games through to the end and, all other things being equal, the balance of air power will broadly follow the historical path. So, although by the end of the war the German player may have the same number of air units still in play, they will be evaporated or forced into reorganisation almost every turn in the face of the Allied air units, and the Allies will be able to make airdrops, Interdiction strikes, bridge attacks &etc., and will have a far greater level of Combat Support. Since I know that this is the case I would be very reluctant to tinker with the air units Replacement Schedule.

If anyone has found that this isn't the case, do let me know.
As I undrestand, you are planning to change the air units alltogether
(1 air unit = 1 type of plane) Perhaps you should also consider increasing the amount of air units slightly. This would also call for more airfields, as certain parts of the map are already crowded. Which reminds me, there should be at least one more airfield in northern norway, right now the nearest is 20 hexes from Narvik, and that is out of range for some fighters.
 

Lou

Event Engineer
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
Location
Rockford, Il
Country
llUnited States
I do not believe Mark will make one plane type per unit.

I did some work on that idea awhile back. There would be 187? Axis air units. On basis of replacement turn/dates there could be 90? air units on the map at one time.
OR More or less. I do not remember the Allies numbers, but britain could not provide enough airfields prior to Normandy.

Then count the airfields required.
 

Karri

Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
600
Reaction score
0
Location
Malta
Country
llMalta
There's also great difference between the air units, some have 32 planes and some have near to 500 planes...
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Karri said:
There's also great difference between the air units, some have 32 planes and some have near to 500 planes...
True, and as Lou says I'm not planning to group individual airframes by unit because I don't think that it would fit in with the scale and overall design of the game. What I have done is separate out some of the really extreme examples of differently ranged aircraft - the mid-war German fighter and night fighter groups were one example.

I think the point is, does the overall air war work on a short and long term basis, rather than is every aircraft represented in the right numbers and at the right time?

In the example above, use the 500 strong units for missions on the main fronts and the smaller ones on the fringes or subsidiary theatres.

I am slowly improving individual units where there is a large range gap between different aircraft currently grouped together, but short of having one 'Me 109F' unit and one 'Me 110G' unit, etc., etc., that'll always be a problem.

I would say this, but my opinion is that the overall air war works.

Airfield in northern Norway, fair enough.
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Just to summarise where these are (part of this is a straight copy from an earlier thread):

Axis Pre-War builds will automatically trigger additional strong, mobile Soviet forces, although I've dropped the artillery corps. USEV 50% of +10 only

No regular German units may move to North Africa and the Middle East, unless by land movement via Turkey or Gibraltar, nor assault the Mediterranean islands. May garrison them by nornal sea movement once captured. One 'Afrika' panzer corps (& HQ and air corps) will enter the game with the mobilisation of Italy + more with the capture of:
Malta - one panzergrenadier corps and one motorised flak corps
Gibraltar - one panzer corps
Crete - one motorised division
Cyprus - one motorised and one pioniere division
Alexandria - one infantry corps

Removed two panzer and one infantry corps from the regular German OOB to partially compensate

Restriction doesn't apply to Axis satellites/rebels

Gathered the early Soviet mechanised corps into one formation set to reconstitute - none of them should - well to the east. This doesn't address the problem of infantry and cavalry being allowed to reconstitute by guerillas.

Simulate the massive Turkish build-up in 1941 - eight extra infantry and one cavalry corps - less heavily armed and lower proficiency than the pre-war army - for both the Allied and Axis Turks.

Cancel the supply bonuses/penalties for the capture of Gibraltar (3 each for the Axis and Allies) - Gibraltar is a strategic point to occupy, which is already represented in the scenario, not an arms production centre or key transit port for equipment.

Cancel the Axis supply bonus for Malta. Instead, remove the Axis supply point from Benghazi, until the Axis take Malta. This will mean that Axis units on the borders of Egypt will be operating at the end of a supply line stretching back to Tripoli (unless they've taken Malta.)

Reduce the supply change for Narvik from 5 to 3. 3 is the industrial output for both France and Italy, so 5 is definitely too high.

Reduce the Allied supply loss for Suez from 4 to 2: again, if the entire output of France or Italy is 3 then 4 is too high.

Increase the net post 'Overlord' bonus from +6 to +10 for the Allies.

Break up the Swiss Air Force into three units to prevent Allied planes from reconstituting in the Swiss exclusion zone.

Break up the German Luftwaffe Jagdkorps into separate units, each with a narrower range - at the moment they each vary from something like 11 -> 37, which I agree is ridiculous.

Implement the suggestion that the 50% chance of an Italian surrender after the fall of Messina can only occur AFTER the Italian North African administrative centre of Tripoli is taken by the Allies. This will discourage suicidal assaults on Messina early in the war. (Not sure what happens if the Allies take Messina first and then Tripoli - would that trigger it, or has the Event passed?)

Started truck production in 1939 rather than 1941!

Reduced the strength of the mighty imaginary panzercorps Wotan.

Exchanged the Axis Pre-War Build of a 600 strong railway gun unit for another panzergrenadier division.

Added some 'soft' equipment to the Lend Lease armour divisions, which are otherwise apparently invincible, although I've lost them often enough.

I need to test this lot to see whether it all works, presumably not, and rewrite the Briefing. One day I must review Lou's weather loop - this might free up Events, perhaps to do a second round of withdrawals to avoid the reconstitution loop, or retrack some formations to reconstitute further east.

As is well known, I'm a receptive sort of chap, open to new ideas and comments so, if there's anything anyone wants me to ignore, do fire away.
 

Karri

Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
600
Reaction score
0
Location
Malta
Country
llMalta
isn't it possible to set the first obejctive for Russia units somewhere in the east and then place them on fixed reconstruction?
 

Bdr.Mallette

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
1,087
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada
Country
llCanada
Sooo,
Mark...
I was wondering...


How much do you pay yourself?
Do you get benefits and such?


That's a lot of work Man!
You can't be married!!! lol

I can't even imagine how many times you started and stopped the scenario for testing! You must be using a different tool than ODD?

Anyways... good work.
Started my second EA game last week sometime, this time as Allies.
I'm sure I'll have something to say about Allies later, not that it'll be important.
heheh... :smoke:
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
Karri said:
isn't it possible to set the first obejctive for Russia units somewhere in the east and then place them on fixed reconstruction?
Yes, but then as the Axis advances into the western USSR it won't overrun some of the Red Army's reconstitution points and weaken the Soviets. If all the points are well to the east all of the destroyed units will be eligible for reconstitution every few turns and the Axis will have a hell of a fight.

If they're spread around a bit, the Soviet units that are due to reconstitute in those points won't (or shouldn't!) which simulates the heavy losses suffered in the early months following 1941.

This gives the Axis a window to decisively defeat the USSR, or at least cripple it and establish a solid defensive line, before the hordes of reinforcements appear.

Equally well for the simulation, if the Red Army is able to push the Axis front line back and recapture the cities with a reconstitution point, it should allow the queued units to reappear, making the Soviets stronger as they recover their territory.
 

Karri

Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
600
Reaction score
0
Location
Malta
Country
llMalta
Hmm. Then would it help placing small garrison units at those reconstruction points to stop any 'accidental' partisan coups?
 

shadow

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
78
Reaction score
0
Location
Arizona, USA
Country
llUnited States
I think that it is the job of the player and not the game to decide whether or not to garrison...
 

shadow

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
78
Reaction score
0
Location
Arizona, USA
Country
llUnited States
Mark Stevens said:
No regular German units may move to North Africa and the Middle East, unless by land movement via Turkey or Gibraltar, nor assault the Mediterranean islands. May garrison them by nornal sea movement once captured. One 'Afrika' panzer corps (& HQ and air corps) will enter the game with the mobilisation of Italy + more with the capture of:
Malta - one panzergrenadier corps and one motorised flak corps
Gibraltar - one panzer corps
Crete - one motorised division
Cyprus - one motorised and one pioniere division
Alexandria - one infantry corps

If these units do not appear until the capture of said locations, and regular Army units are not allowed to be active in the med/north africa, who will be allowed to assault the islands?
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
"If these units do not appear until the capture of said locations, and regular Army units are not allowed to be active in the med/north africa, who will be allowed to assault the islands?"

Should have made it clearer: the various Axis satellites in the Mediterranean, principally the Italians, and also potentially the Vichy French, Axis Turks, and Spanish. There will also be one German 'Afrika' panzer corps available immediately Italy enters the war. And the German airborne units can be used as well.
 

Mantis

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
6,239
Reaction score
3
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country
llCanada
Mark Stevens said:
Axis Pre-War builds will automatically trigger additional strong, mobile Soviet forces, although I've dropped the artillery corps. USEV 50% of +10 only
I think 100% of a +10 sounds better... Still quite a drop from +30.

Mark said:
Removed two panzer and one infantry corps from the regular German OOB to partially compensate
What happens if the Germans ignore Africa, or never take Gibraltar? Are they then out one Panzer Korps? Will this mean the Axis will always activate Spain, then; just to ensure that they get that korps back, with the added bonus of having Gibraltar? Is it a late-arriving Panzer that is removed, so it's not so big a deal? Or maybe it can be a 'bonus' panzer?

Mark said:
Exchanged the Axis Pre-War Build of a 600 strong railway gun unit for another panzergrenadier division.
I agree with James - those PG divisions are nothing all that special. Couldn't it be an armored division (not korps), or a regular arty unit instead?

Mark said:
I need to test this lot to see whether it all works,
As always, I'd like to receive a version hot off the presses, please! I'll press buttons and see if I can blow it up.

Kudos!

:thumup:
 

Mantis

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
6,239
Reaction score
3
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country
llCanada
Bdr.Mallette said:
Sooo,
Mark...
I was wondering...


How much do you pay yourself?
Do you get benefits and such?


That's a lot of work Man!
You can't be married!!! lol

I can't even imagine how many times you started and stopped the scenario for testing! You must be using a different tool than ODD?

Anyways... good work.
I'd like to make a suggestion.

See the little button in the top right of the area where Mark's posts appear?



Click on the check mark, and give Mark some postive rep points for his tireless work for all us diehard WWII grand campaign vets!
 

Mark Stevens

Europe Aflame Forum Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
5
Location
London (United Kingd
Country
ll
"See the little button in the top right of the area where Mark's posts appear?

Click on the check mark, and give Mark some postive rep points for his tireless work for all us diehard WWII grand campaign vets!"

Don't trouble yourself, you maniac.

"What happens if the Germans ignore Africa, or never take Gibraltar? Are they then out one Panzer Korps? Will this mean the Axis will always activate Spain, then; just to ensure that they get that korps back, with the added bonus of having Gibraltar? Is it a late-arriving Panzer that is removed, so it's not so big a deal? Or maybe it can be a 'bonus' panzer?"

This is, of course, a tricky one. Simply adding in an entire formation to cover the possible 'Afrika' units would greatly increase German strength if they go for and manage to active the lot. If, as you suggest, the Axis player ignores Africa entirely then he loses one panzer and one infantry corps from his normal OOB (assuming he gets the one for mobilising Italy.) If we don't want to interfere too much with the current OOB, all I can suggest is removing the bonus 'SS Wotan' panzer corps. This appears if the Axis take Baku, but arguably the +4/-4 bonus and penalty, and the intervention of (a now far larger) Axis Turkey make up for it.

Or maybe that one bonus panzer that appears if London falls - you could argue that that is less likely to be needed, and there isn't much justification for it anyway? That seems to be the best candidate.

If the Axis player always mobilises Spain just to get Gibraltar and activate that one panzer corps, he'll face the loss of the not insubstantial Vichy forces and their replacement by the Admiral Darlan French. Is that one corps so vitally important in a game of this size?

"I agree with James - those PG divisions are nothing all that special. Couldn't it be an armored division (not korps), or a regular arty unit instead?"

I'm hoping that by having the 1930s Soviet units mobilising the Axis Pre-War Build Option isn't going to be such a regular choice as it seems to be at present. Hell, since we're giving the Allied player so much extra metal, why not make it another experimental OKH Panzercorps? Damn thing's pretty weedy with its Panzer I & IIs anyhow. Poor old panzergrenadiers.
 
Top