Proof that the Finns were just regular blokes

[Doughboy]

There has been a lot of debate of ASL's treatment of Finns being modeled as superman. The reality is that these troops (as desparate and heroic as they were) were severely underequipted to stop a modern mechanized army especially the with the scale of resources the Soviets possessed by mid July 1944. Though I'm not convinced that the Finns were indeeded modeled properly the following article from wikipedia.org on the Battle of Tali-Ihantala is food for thought:

The Battle of Tali-Ihantala was a battle in World War II, part of the Continuation War between Finland and the Soviet Union. It lasted from June 25 to July 9, 1944 in the small area (100km²) between the Gulf of Viipuri and Vuoksi river, and ended with Soviet forces giving up, unsuccessfully, on their attempts to force their way through the Finnish defences.

Soviet Union started massive attack on the Finnish front on the Karelian Isthmus on June 9, 1944 (coordinated with Invasion of Normandy).
The attack soon breached the Finnish front line of defence in Valkeasaari on June 10 and Finnish forces retreated to secondary defence line, the VT-line aka. Vammelsuu-Taipale -line. Soviet attack was supported by massive artillery and air bombardments and armored forces. The VT-line was breached in Sahakylä and Kuuterselkä on June 14 and after failed counterattack in Kuuterselkä by the Finnish armoured division the defence was pulled back to VKT-line (Viipuri (Vyborg) - Kuparsaari - Taipale).
This was followed by two weeks of retreat and delaying battles. The city of Vyborg was captured by the Soviets without any significant battle on June 20. Finland sued for peace June 21, Soviet Union replied that only unconditional surrender was acceptable

The Battle
Soviet attack was concentrated on area east of Vyborg, from south village of Tali to north towards Ihantala. This was only suitable terrain for armoured forces in Karelian Isthmus, 10 km wide and limited by lakes and the river Vuoksi on the east. By this time Finnish army had concentrated half of it's artillery in to area, along with army's only armoured division with StuG III assault guns and German 303. assault gun brigade. The troops finally had new German anti-tank weapons that were previously kept in storage. Fighting in area began June 25 and June 30 Finnish forces retreat from Tali. Heaviest fighting tooks place between July 1-July 2 when Finnish lost 800 men per day. On July 2 Finnish captured a radio message, according to Soviet 63rd Division and 30. Armored Brigade were to launch attack on on July 3 0400. The following morning, 2 minutes before supposed attack, 40 Finnish and 40 German bombers bombed Soviet troops and 250 guns fired 4000 artillery shells into the area. On the same day, beginning at 06:00, 200 Soviet planes and infantry attacked Finnish troops. By 19:00 the Finnish troops had restored their lines. On July 6 Soviet forces had some success despite Finnish 6th Division's support of 18 artillery battalions and one heavy battery. Soviets were thrown back following day and their counterattacks at 13:30 and 19:00 did not succeed. By July 7 focus of attacks was already changing to Vuoksi and Soviets started transferring their best troops to Estonia to fight the Germans. By July 9 Soviet troops no longer attempted break-through despite smaller fighting continued.

Losses
Soviet army has been reported to lost from 400 to 600 tanks in Tali-Ihantala area, mainly to air attacks and close defence weapons. 120-280 Soviet planes were shot down. Finnish army lost 8561 men wounded, lost or killed. Soviet estimates is 18000-22000 killed or wounded. Majority of losses were due artillery fire.

Other fronts
At the same time Soviet 59. Army attacked across the islands of gulf of Vyborg from July 4, but attack on mainland was thrown back into the sea by the German 122nd Division of the V AK on July 10. After failure at Tali on July 3. Soviet 23rd Army tried crossing the river Vuoksi July 4 at Vuosalmi, but was not able to expand the beachhead despite 3 divisions there against Finnish 2nd Division. Breakthrough attempts lasted until July 21. By July 12 Soviet Union was ready to discuss peace terms with Finland.
Before the end of war in Finnish were still able to encircle two Soviet divisions near Ilomantsi.


End of War
Cease-fire between the Soviet Union and Finland began 07:00 September 4, 1944 for Finnish and for Soviet forces 24 hours later


Forces
Finnish IV AK
3rd Brigade "Blue Brigade"
Finnish 3rd Division
Finnish 4th Division
Finnish 18th Division, since June 27 11th Division.
Finnish 6th Division
Finnish Armoured Division
German Unit Kuhlmey arrived to Finland June 16, it consisted of 32 Fw-190 fighters and ground attack planes and 32 Ju-87 Stukas.
German Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 303 arrived to Finland June 22. While unloading, the overloaded ship Marsk Stig capsized in Helsinki harbour and some of the vehicles sank into the basin.
Soviet: 21st Army's 15 Divisions.
XXX Guards Corps
XCVII Corps
CVIII Corps
CIX Corps


John 8)

 

[larth]

Wow...

Hi John,

that is pretty thin as a "proof", isn't it? Citing one radio intercept allowing the Finns to maul one attack before it happened in the last days of the third war they were fighting against the Russians without being overun.

It could also have mentioned the starting number of Russian soldiers which was >150.000 (3:1) IIRC. There is more and more online info on the Finnish wars. Google for it.

regards,
Lars

 

[Doughboy]

that is pretty thin as a "proof", isn't it? Citing one radio intercept allowing the Finns to maul one attack before it happened in the last days of the third war they were fighting against the Russians without being overun.

It could also have mentioned the starting number of Russian soldiers which was >150.000 (3:1) IIRC. There is more and more online info on the Finnish wars. Google for it.

regards,
Lars

Hi Lars,

actually, the Battle of Tali-Ihantala took place in the last stages of the war which by then the Soviets had overwhelming resources. Even the Germans were in head long retreat by this stage as a consequence of Operation Bagration. Part of this was due to the Germans withdrawing significant resources in an attempt to counter the Normandy invasions.

To put things into context though, the Finns did indeed stop the Soviets early on when the odds were nearly equal. What was surprising to the was the fact that the Soviets were able to mobilize considerable forces for that that venture so quickly in the dead of winter. Please see the following from wikipedia.org for details on the "Continuation War" :

The Continuation War was fought between Finland and the Soviet Union during World War II; from the Soviet bombing attacks on June 25, 1941, to cease-fire September 4, 1944 (on the Finnish side) and September 5 (on the Soviet side). The United Kingdom declared war on Finland on December 6, 1941, but didn't participate actively. Material support from, and military cooperation with, Nazi Germany was critical for Finland's struggle with the big neighbor. The war was formally concluded by the Paris peace treaty of 1947.

The Continuation War (jatkosota in Finnish) is so named because the Finns view it as a continuation of the Winter War (November 30, 1939, to March 12, 1940). Seen from a Russian perspective, it was merely one of the fronts of the Great Patriotic War. The war was, however, considered separate from the World War by Finland and the Soviet Union – an understanding not quite appreciated by Finland's chief supporters, the Nazi leadership of Germany

Please go to this link regarding the details of the Continuation War, as it is a huge article and indeed quite intriguing. It believe that it is certainly a reasonable primer on the topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War

With regards to whether the last post was indeed proof, perhaps not, the Finns were still men at arms and not supermen as depited in ASL. In that regard, you are correct to challenge me in that the proof is thin. On the otherhand with regardss to the myth created by the game system, no where in literature have I encountered anything that it hints to this myth.

Indeed the fighting abiliityof the Finns were exceptional especially against the initial Soviet expedition of the Winter war. But, this was likely due to their intense motivation to defend their homeland agressively from foreign incursion and the fact that that the terrain and to a large degree their training optimized their performance.

I suppose that the performance was no where as exceptional when they took part in the Seige of Leningrad with the Germans and likely performed like regular troops. But, then again finding literature at the company level for Finnish troop performance is difficult to obtain especially in this campaign.

This leads to wonder has anyone encountered any scenarios in which the Finns took part in the Seige of Leningrad? I am curious how they should be modeled as compared to their performance in the Winter war?

thanks for your insight Lars!

John

 

[tommyl]

This leads to wonder has anyone encountered any scenarios in which the Finns took part in the Seige of Leningrad? I am curious how they should be modeled as compared to their performance in the Winter war?

Not sure of any scenarios, but per A25.72, if the Finns are outside of their 1939 borders, they are represented by 5-4-8 troops and have none of the special abilities for Finns

 

[Doughboy]

Wow that blows me away, I missed that item. I was just reading up on the Lapland war in which as part of the conditions of cease fire with the Soviets in 1944 the Finns had to eject the Germans from Finnland. Since the Germans were situated in the far north and were unwilling to leave the Finns had no choice but to engage the former allies just as the Italians did. This would certainly make an interesting set of scenarios but, I have no idea what the landscape of Lapland is like so similating scenarios might be rough. I suppose the the landscape might be analegous to Alaska but I would need access to better maps and input from our Finnish ASLs.

cheers!

John

 

[larth]

Hi John,

which war / situation do mean when you say the Finns managed to stop the Soviets when the odds were nearly equal?

At the start of the 1944 June offensive you mention the odds for the Soviets were 4:1 in manpower (270.000 vs 70.000), 660 tanks and assault guns vs 164 *), 1.660 artillery pieces vs. 289, and 15:1 in airplanes. This offensive was in the middle of the summer so no snow.

*) Of these 134 AFV's were 30 StuG's, and a handfull T-34's the only modern AFV's. There were 87 T-26 tanks! The Finns improved this situation later in June by capturing nine T-34/85's of which seven could be used against the former owners. The German StuG Brigade 303 arrived on June 22nd providing another 29 StuG's (some with 105 mm MA).

I do not believe there were any Finnish units participating in the attacks on Leningrad.

best regards,
Lars

 

[ASLgrognard]

Leningrad Pack from Fanatic Enterprises

In response to an earlier question in this thread.
I haven't seen it, but from their site:


A Cold Day in Hell, December 1941: The Finns and the Russians go at it in this small infantry only action. The action takes place in winter conditions on boards 8 and 42. This should make for good tourney action.

Stalin's Revenge, June 1944: Another Finnish versus Russian scenario setup on boards 5 and 32. This is a smallish scenario featuring 9 Finnish squads and a couple of AT Guns against 15 Russian squads and 3 AFV. This is a brutal one for the Finnish as they attempt to stop the Russians from capturing some buildings.

 

[Doughboy]

Hi Lars,

[code:1:47cb206f98]which war / situation do mean when you say the Finns managed to stop the Soviets when the odds were nearly equal? [/code:1:47cb206f98]

Actually, I was referring to the Winter war of 1939 and once again I made another huge error the Soviets outnumbered the Finns by about four to one as the following text from Wikipedia.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War on the Winter War states:

on November 30 the Soviets attacked with 23 divisions of 450,000 men who quickly reached the Mannerheim Line. The war was based on a bogus border incident - the so-called Shelling of Mainila where Soviet artillery fired on their own soldiers, blaming it on the Finns. While the claims have never been considered credible by the Finns, they were only recently proved false by formerly classified documents.

Initially Finland had a mobilized army of only 160,000 men, but the Finnish troops turned out to be a fierce adversary employing guerrilla tactics, fast moving ski troops in white camouflage suits, and capitalizing on their local knowledge. A certain improvised petrol bomb adapted from the Spanish Civil War was used with great success, and gained fame as the Molotov cocktail. The conditions of the winter 1939/40 were harsh; temperatures of -40°C were not unusual, and the Finns were able to use this to their advantage.

[code:1:47cb206f98]At the start of the 1944 June offensive you mention the odds for the Soviets were 4:1 in manpower (270.000 vs 70.000), 660 tanks and assault guns vs 164 *), 1.660 artillery pieces vs. 289, and 15:1 in airplanes. This offensive was in the middle of the summer so no snow.

*) Of these 134 AFV's were 30 StuG's, and a handfull T-34's the only modern AFV's. There were 87 T-26 tanks! The Finns improved this situation later in June by capturing nine T-34/85's of which seven could be used against the former owners. The German StuG Brigade 303 arrived on June 22nd providing another 29 StuG's (some with 105 mm MA). [/code:1:47cb206f98]

Yes all of those T-26 were captured from the Soviets during the Winter War. I did not come across info on the captured T-34s though.

[code:1:47cb206f98]I do not believe there were any Finnish units participating in the attacks on Leningrad[/code:1:47cb206f98].

From all accounts I believe your correct that the Finns did not press the attack on Leningrad, rather the Finns were content with securing East Karelia and did not go any further.

I can only conclude that the Finnish campaign before during and after is quite intriguing. The politics go back to the cession of the first world war in which the Bolsheviks invaded the Baltic states. What was interesting was that Finland formerly part of Sweden was held by Imperial Russia for over a hundred years. The cession of the first world war was an opportune time for them to declare independence. Needless to say the Soviets were not impressed and longed to correct this by 1939. The Russo German Pact complicated matters as this put Finland in a delicate position who needed help.

The Western Allies on the otherhand were initially interested in this idea, but commitments in Norway changed that premise quickly. In the end Finland was able to gain assistance from Germany in exchange for access to Swedish raw material access. Finally Barbarossa changed the level of commitment from the Germans to Finland's favour, though the Finns prefer that their relationship was independent of the larger war.

To a large extent the Finns invasion in Karelia was in essence to recapture their traditional agricultural territories that were populated in large part by ethnic Finns. As a consequence the Finns had no real interest in going beyond these traditional territories and were certainly not interested in the larger German agenda.

In the end Western historians often considered this aspect of the war a sideshow, but on closer examination it is truly fasinating. 8)

best regards Lars!

 

[jshultis]

Wow that blows me away, I missed that item. I was just reading up on the Lapland war in which as part of the conditions of cease fire with the Soviets in 1944 the Finns had to eject the Germans from Finnland. Since the Germans were situated in the far north and were unwilling to leave the Finns had no choice but to engage the former allies just as the Italians did. This would certainly make an interesting set of scenarios but, I have no idea what the landscape of Lapland is like so similating scenarios might be rough. I suppose the the landscape might be analegous to Alaska but I would need access to better maps and input from our Finnish ASLs.

cheers!

John

John

You may be interested in the book "Black Edelweiss" by Johann Voss (pen name). It covers Voss' experiences in battle around the 66th parallel, fighting as a German and the eventual retreat after the Soviet/Finnish armistice.

The link to the book on amazon is as follows;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966638980/qid=1086711098/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2221733-4912946?v=glance&s=books

Jesse

 

[larth]

Hi John,

[code:1:72e6074967]which war / situation do mean when you say the Finns managed to stop the Soviets when the odds were nearly equal? [/code:1:72e6074967]
Actually, I was referring to the Winter war of 1939 and once again I made another huge error the Soviets outnumbered the Finns by about four to one as the following text from Wikipedia.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War on the Winter War states:
....

Right, the Finns were outnumbered then too. Although the quality of the Russians was not as good as it in '44.

Yes all of those T-26 were captured from the Soviets during the Winter War. I did not come across info on the captured T-34s though.

The Finns captured anything they could get their hands at. Especially during the Winter War when they had no armor at all (except for an AC purchased from Sweden).

In the end Western historians often considered this aspect of the war a sideshow, but on closer examination it is truly fasinating. 8)

Indeed! You can look forward to some intresting scenarios in the Finnish module, far from the current ones in topics and feeling.

best regards,
Lars