Projected Touchscreen = VASL + real counters

Jazz

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Interesting concept.

I find myself wondering why would one want to circumvent one of the prime advantages (i.e. no physical counters/maps to pull, sort, or keep set up/stored between games) of VASL?

All for a paltry $1500?

Possibly to record CG situations or transcribe physical games to VASL....but still, seems a touch silly?
 

Spencer Armstrong

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I mean, neat, but seems like a solution looking for a problem. Real counters are way more of a pain than real boards. Now, if you could get me holographic snap-to counters on a real board, I'd be interested.
 

von Marwitz

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I find myself wondering why would one want to circumvent one of the prime advantages (i.e. no physical counters/maps to pull, sort, or keep set up/stored between games) of VASL?

All for a paltry $1500?
Bah! What's USD 1500?
Some people spent that amount and more on their storage system for counter-clippings... :D

von Marwitz
 

Horrido

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I think the solution will be RFID chips embedded in counters. Board games rules will be enforced by the computer. Everything else is up to you. Tech is here now, but the programing tech needs to progress so that software development is easier. Give it 10-15 years.
 

Philippe D.

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I think the solution will be RFID chips embedded in counters. Board games rules will be enforced by the computer. Everything else is up to you. Tech is here now, but the programing tech needs to progress so that software development is easier. Give it 10-15 years.
It might come for more classical boardgames, but one of ASL's characteristics is abundance of counters. Even with just the core modules, each nationality comes with hundreds of counters. Putting even dirt cheap RFID chips in each of them would be horrendously expensive - not to mention the problem for third party editors.

But for other types of games, with smaller number of pieces, this is probably the future, yes. Games that come with an app for each player's smartphone, where some information gathered through "smart" counters will be displayed. I was in a gaming store yesterday, and the guy was explaining how each card in this game came with a QR code that you'd scan to get the proper interaction.
 

Horrido

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Don't take this wrong (don't want to come off as being snobby) but I don't like electronic enhancements in physical games. I don't think it's because I'm old, either as I love video games - probably spend more time on them than physical games - hard core stuff too. I highly doubt app assisted games will be anything but a novelty. Currently the achilles heel is tying the obsolescence of the game to the device. When computers will really make a difference is when they bring functional improvements to a physical game. For me simple rules enforcement would be a HUGE thing. By 'rules enforcement' it could be something as simple as a buzzer if a rule is violated - you get the idea. If that feature were available I would pay significant money. Others that would be nice are Fog of War, and A.I. Imagine the day where wargame A.I. is so good it can beat you like today's chess programs. Opinion here (although I have worked in manufacturing my whole life) I think RFID tech on counters will soon be essentially free - part of the printing costs. The tech is going be mass produced on a scale we seldom see. Kind of scary if you think about it.

Now if they ever perfect holographic projection, I might change my mind. The real bottleneck is programming. We won't see my dream A.I. until we have 'super-intelligent A.I', and by then we'll be slaves to the robots. :)
 
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zgrose

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I dunno, after mastering Go ASL would be a good next step for our overlords.
 

Philippe D.

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Go was a good target because it has super-simple rules, and yet is hard to master. Coding the ASL rules is not going to be a walk in the park, and that's step 0 of writing an AI for it.
 

von Marwitz

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Go was a good target because it has super-simple rules, and yet is hard to master. Coding the ASL rules is not going to be a walk in the park, and that's step 0 of writing an AI for it.
Truth spoken.

Looking at 'World in Flames' they have spent years over years to code the rules, which are fewer than ASL. After the release of the computer version, they are still in the process of finding and eliminating bugs since a couple of years. An AI was planned (and originally to promised to be included upon release) but they haven't even started on it.

In the meantime, AFAIK there has been an (overseeable) edition of the rules of the original game from the 'final' to the 'a little more final' version which I saw at games fair in Essen a couple of weeks ago. I doubt that this has been coded yet. Maybe it never will in order to get the current set running without issues.

Now, that was for WiF.

ASL would be a challenge of yet another scale. It ain't going to happen unless some billionaire decides to dump his funds on it instead of space ships etc.

von Marwitz
 

boylermaker

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I don't think you need to code the rules to make an ASL-playing AI. If you have a large enough training data set of actual games (and you could probably get that pretty easily by hacking the VASL server to record people's games), then you could just machine-learn your way to an AI that doesn't know the rules, but has good enough instincts that its proposed moves are usually legal. That cuts the amount of rules coding you need to "enough to grok most scenario VC", which is a much, much smaller subset.

If you're making an Alpha-Go sort of AI that can rely on a human being to do rules enforcement, that's no problem.
 

von Marwitz

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If you're making an Alpha-Go sort of AI that can rely on a human being to do rules enforcement, that's no problem.
Dunno.

The Go rules seems to be simple, so it is quite easy for a human being to do the rules enforcement.

The ASL rules are extremely complex and I reckon there is not a single player around who applies them without mistake.
Now usually, you have two opponents that at least try their best to play according to the rules. With your proposition, you would create an AI monster, which would attempt to 'cheat' (without knowing that it is actually cheating) by attempting to pull things off without being slapped on the fingers by the human rules enforcer. An eerie thought...

von Marwitz
 

Philippe D.

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I don't think you need to code the rules to make an ASL-playing AI. If you have a large enough training data set of actual games (and you could probably get that pretty easily by hacking the VASL server to record people's games), then you could just machine-learn your way to an AI that doesn't know the rules, but has good enough instincts that its proposed moves are usually legal. That cuts the amount of rules coding you need to "enough to grok most scenario VC", which is a much, much smaller subset.

If you're making an Alpha-Go sort of AI that can rely on a human being to do rules enforcement, that's no problem.
No way this is going to work.

First, Alpha-Go was trained not by looking at human games, it was just given the rules (in the form of "here is a function that gives you your possible moves in any situation" and "here is a function that decides who wins the game for a given sequence of moves"), and then it played a huuuuuge number of games versus itself. As in, I guess, more games than have been played by all humans, ever. Way more. And what is a beautiful success for machine learning is that this actually worked - by doing so, and using a clever learning to play "what works" more often than "what doesn't works", it reached a level beyond that reached by human players.

Obviously, this would not have been possible with human rules enforcement: you'd need people to check on millions (billions, probably) of games. For this to be even possible, the rules have to be computer-enforced. This is why Go is such a perfect game for this: the rules are extremely simple to enforce - at any given time, the list of legal moves for a player is always a sublist of a fixed list of 362 possibilities (19x19 places to play a stone, and "pass").

As for your AI that observes human games and learns the rules... this is not going to work, either. For one thing, VASL games are full of rules mistakes. The server doesn't try to enforce the rules, and people take shortcuts. The AI also would not be able to discern "moves" (player actions) that are taken because the rules say they must be, and those that are under the player's choice. You'd need annotated games.

Another problem would be that there are way too many rules, and a vast number of them never get used - so your AI would not get to "learn" them: to stand a chance of doing this, it would need a lot of instances where each rule enters into play. It might work for ASLSK; for ASL, it would never learn the interactions of Deep Snow and Glider landings, or any other rare and tricky rules combination.

Could you make an AI that tries to take moves that are 90% legal? Probably. 99% legal? Probably. That would still average several illegal moves per game. And if you're not coding the rules by themselves, all you can add to the AI's "knowledge" is that "in THIS exact situation, THIS move is illegal; pick another one". Kinda like teaching Calvinball to a computer.
 

zgrose

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...it would never learn the interactions of Deep Snow and Glider landings, or any other rare and tricky rules combination.
These would be examples, IMO, of where we (humans) call something complex would be trivial to a computer. A lot of the mechanics of ASL aren't complicated, they are simple If...Else If... blocks. Long, but simple. The AI doesn't care about the steps to calculate the TH#, it's only going to weigh whether to advance his AFV based on the probability weights of its opponent firing and how likely that shot would be to affect his unit. It's going to churn out that 23.23423852459% likelihood of being destroyed in a blink of an eye. What the AI would have to learn is how to weigh when to move his squad into the street into the LOS of 3 concealed units vs some alternate action towards its strategic goal.

Bear in mind that many computer games are fairly complex/large rulesets (i.e. Combat Mission use a physics model for AFV fire, not a TH table) that would probably put ASL to shame for complexity from the human point of view. Don't know enough about how AI/ML is dealing with the fuzzy logic of an ever expanding probability tree since there is a random element (dice) missing from Chess/Go/etc but I imagine that's the real meat of what the ASL bot would have to learn.
 

boylermaker

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I didn't know the details of Alpha-Go, but in retrospect it makes sense that it would have been playing itself, since otherwise how would it have discovered the move-space to revolutionize the game. I agree we can't do that here without somebody doing the PITA work of coding in the rulebook. So I think you guys are right that a VASL-machine-learning approach would not produce a champion ASL player.

But, I think the VASL method would produce a competent ASL player that does sane-looking things most of the time. It's not going to revolutionize the game the way Alpha-Go did, because you are stuck with the training data. But I think you would get an AI that proposes legal moves as often as your average player and groks simple VC as well as an average ASL player. Intricate VC are where human players would have a huge edge, I suspect. The Glider-Landing-Deep-Snow combination is not a huge hurdle to being a decent ASL player. Sure, VASLbot has no training data set for this situation and doesn't really know what to do, but on the other hand, neither do I! I consider myself a decent ASL player, but I'm pretty sure I would really mess up a regular glider landing, let alone a complicated one.

I think VASLbot is most obviously a computer in two respects:
1) It immediately fails the Turing test because it doesn't know whether the 6 it just rolled broke my unit or not (or it might have a guess, but I don't see a compelling reason to program in this ability off the top of my head).
2) At the end of the game, we humans switch from playing by instinct to explicitly playing to the victory conditions. VASLbot would have a hard time doing this (but then, so do newbies).
 

jrv

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Until we teach the a prospective vaslbot how to check its dice averages obsessively and how to whine, there's no way it will pass a turing test.

JR
 

boylermaker

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Fortunately, that's the easiest part:
if (TRUE) {
`CTRL F3`
print "I will never believe that the RANDOM.org dice bot is random; look at all of these stretches of identical dice rolls. Totally unfair."
}
Just add that after every die roll, and you should be good to go.
 

Philippe D.

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These would be examples, IMO, of where we (humans) call something complex would be trivial to a computer. A lot of the mechanics of ASL aren't complicated, they are simple If...Else If... blocks. Long, but simple. The AI doesn't care about the steps to calculate the TH#, it's only going to weigh whether to advance his AFV based on the probability weights of its opponent firing and how likely that shot would be to affect his unit. It's going to churn out that 23.23423852459% likelihood of being destroyed in a blink of an eye. What the AI would have to learn is how to weigh when to move his squad into the street into the LOS of 3 concealed units vs some alternate action towards its strategic goal.
I would buy this, IF the computer had the rules modeled. What I was responding to was the idea that observing enough human-played games would be enough for the computer to infer the rules.
 
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