Prisoner & Nationality

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Do Prisoners keep their Nationality ?
For example, if the VC state that "US win if there is no unbroken German MMC on board" and at the end of the game a US squad guards a Prisoner, does this Prisoner count as a German MMC (and so prevent the US side to win) ?
Thanks.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think that Prisoners don't really have a nationality, in that VC sense.

IIRC, this has come up before.
 

Actionjick

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Do Prisoners keep their Nationality ?
For example, if the VC state that "US win if there is no unbroken German MMC on board" and at the end of the game a US squad guards a Prisoner, does this Prisoner count as a German MMC (and so prevent the US side to win) ?
Thanks.
Good point. 🤔
 

Eagle4ty

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Chris has it exactly correct, the VC should state Good Order as this would certainly preclude POWs from counting. the Unbroken would still allow Berserk-units/Units-in-Melee to count if that was their intent and may include POWs (subject to clarification). All in all a very poorly worded and not very well thought out VC.
 

Actionjick

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Chris has it exactly correct, the VC should state Good Order as this would certainly preclude POWs from counting. the Unbroken would still allow Berserk-units/Units-in-Melee to count if that was their intent and may include POWs (subject to clarification). All in all a very poorly worded and not very well thought out VC.
I couldn't agree more. As you said very poorly worded and a good point for designers to remember. Your design may seem clear to you but perhaps not so clear to others. Playtesting is not just seeing how the scenario plays out but if the VC, SSRs, board setup and overlays are easily understood and not prone to misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

OOB also. 🤔
 
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I couldn't agree more. As you said very poorly worded and a good point for designers to remember. Your design may seem clear to you but perhaps not so clear to others. Playtesting is not just seeing how the scenario plays out but if the VC, SSRs, board setup and overlays are easily understood and not prone to misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

OOB also. 🤔
There is no issue with the "unbroken" condition : any unit is either broken or unbroken (Good Order, Berserk, in Melee, etc.) at the end of the game. The intend of the designer is correct. The only clarification is about Prisoners (unbroken yes, but German or with no Nationality ?). IMHO, as Prisoners are white counters (and so there is no distinction between US Prisoner counters and German Prisoner counters), they have no Nationality.
 
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Actionjick

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There is no issue with the "unbroken" condition : any unit is either broken or unbroken (Good Order, Berserk, in Melee, etc.) at the end of the game. The intend of the designer is correct. The only clarification is about Prisoners (unbroken yes, but German or with no Nationality ?). IMHO, as Prisoners are white counters (and so there is no distinction between US Prisoner counters and German Prisoner counters), they have no Nationality.
I don't think your conclusion is correct. If Prisoners had no nationality then there would be no consequences as a result of Massacres. Following your conclusion look at this example.

A Russian squad is taken Prisoner and now has no nationality. The Prisoner is subsequently Massacred. Because it had no nationality how could No Quarter go into effect?

Also if the Prisoner no longer has a Guard and becomes an Unarmed Unit what nationality is it and what mechanism restores it's nationality?


Just some considerations off the top of my head. NRBH so will delve into it deeper later.
 

Actionjick

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I don't think your conclusion is correct. If Prisoners had no nationality then there would be no consequences as a result of Massacres. Following your conclusion look at this example.

A Russian squad is taken Prisoner and now has no nationality. The Prisoner is subsequently Massacred. Because it had no nationality how could No Quarter go into effect?

Also if the Prisoner no longer has a Guard and becomes an Unarmed Unit what nationality is it and what mechanism restores it's nationality?


Just some considerations off the top of my head. NRBH so will delve into it deeper later.
Quickly checking the RB I believe the view that Prisoners retain their nationality is reinforced by A 20.551, Rearming. There it states that Unarmed Units that rearm are replaced by units of that nationality.

I'll check this out more after finishing some chores but it makes no sense to me that Prisoners would lose their nationality. Either in reality or ASL. YMMV. 🤗
 

klasmalmstrom

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Quickly checking the RB I believe the view that Prisoners retain their nationality is reinforced by A 20.551, Rearming. There it states that Unarmed Units that rearm are replaced by units of that nationality.
I think a German Prisoner is still of the German nationality in that sense - but I don't think it is a "German" MMC in the sense that it belongs/is-controlled-by the "German" player....while it is a prisoner...

E.g., same thing with a captured LMG - it's still a German LMG when possessed by a Russian squad, but it doesn't belong to the "German" player anymore.
 

Actionjick

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I think a German Prisoner is still of the German nationality in that sense - but I don't think it is a "German" MMC in the sense that it belongs/is-controlled-by the "German" player....while it is a prisoner...

E.g., same thing with a captured LMG - it's still a German LMG when possessed by a Russian squad, but it doesn't belong to the "German" player anymore.
As stated earlier the problem is poorly worded VC. I pretty much agree with you but the argument could be made that a Prisoner is an Unbroken MMC. The question is how are Prisoners considered when the VC doesn't rely on CVP? I believe the Massace rules mention something along those lines but NRBH.

The issue of control I find very intriguing also. Will most likely pontificate on that subject in the Shanghaid thread.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I pretty much agree with you but the argument could be made that a Prisoner is an Unbroken MMC.
It is - but not under the Control of the opposing side (hence - IMO - not a "German" MMC [Controlled by the German side]) - and I ask myself - what is the most likely intention of the rules-writers/scenario-designers?

In general - if a rule can be interpreted in two ways, but one way is 99% likely the intention, and the other is 1% - at least I know which way I would be leaning. :)
 
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As stated earlier the problem is poorly worded VC.
I don't understand what is poorly worded here: "US win if there is no unbroken German MMC on board". MMC are broken or unbroken, the two sides of the coin (or MMC counter).
Do you think ""US win if all German MMC on board are broken" is better ? To me, it is the same thing.
 

Actionjick

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It is - but not under the Control of the opposing side (hence - IMO - not a "German" MMC [Controlled by the German side]) - and I ask myself - what is the most likely intention of the rules-writers/scenario-designers?

In general - if a rule can be interpreted in two ways, but one way is 99% likely the intention, and the other is 1% - at least I know which way I would be leaning. :)
Full disclosure: I am playing Devil's Advocate here.

For the most part I agree with you and Laurent on the intent of the VC. However the mere fact that we are having this discussion proves that they are not as well written as should be expected for a rules system as detailed and complex as ASL. If multiple interpretations of VC are possible that VC should be rewritten to avoid any ambiguity or confusion.

Have to finish the chores before Actiondebbie gets back from shopping. Interesting discussion. 🤔
 
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