Primosole Bridge Gliders - KEUs?

[Jon]

Hi

In Primosole Bridge CG 1, the Britsih have Gliders landing that contain a jeep, AT gun and grew as per US Vehicle Note 51 [E8.1]. Questions in bold font.

The Glinder lands safely and is flipped to its landed (green) side. It is within the NVR of an Italian unit

Is the landed (Green) Glider considered an enemy unit to allow the Italian unit to attempt to place a Starshell as per the 2nd bullet point of E1.91?
Is the landed (Green) Glider considered a Known enemy unit for purposes of granting the Italian Freedom of Movement (the Glider contents are still off board in the Cloaking Box)?

The Italian may Defensive Final Fire at it if it has landed within their NVR as if it were a stopped truck with a target size of 0.
In the AFPh the contents of the glider are not placed on board since the contents are a vehicle/Gun and its PRC. So the contents of the glider still remain off board in the cloaking box until British Turn 2 MPh. So British Turn 1 ends with only the Green Glider counter on board.

It is now Italian Turn 1. Assume the Italian player can now attempt to place Starshells (a gunflash was placed on British turn 1)
In the Italian PFPh, is the green Glider counter considered a Known enemy unit for E1.922 Starshell placement method 2 (remembering at this point the contents of the glider are still offboard in the cloaking box)?

Cheers
Jon

 

[Robin Reeve]

Gliders haven't their own MF/MP, so they are not units - see Index definition.

 

[ibncalb]

From memory the glider contents are placed on board only in the advance phase. I seem to recall there is some verbiage about how the contents at that stage become targets/units.

 

[Jon]

From memory the glider contents are placed on board only in the advance phase. I seem to recall there is some verbiage about how the contents at that stage become targets/units.

True for Infantry and their SW but not for vehicles/Guns (and their PRC/manning Infantry) - E8.4
It would seem vehicles/Guns/PRC are not placed on board until a subsequent Friendly MPh when they can attempt to unload as per US Vehicle Note 51 (the LVT4)

 

[Jon]

Gliders haven't their own MF/MP, so they are not units - see Index definition.
View attachment 30690

So you are saying that apart from the abilty of an enemy unit to fire at it in their DFPh (as if it were a stopped truck [E8.3], the landed glider is not considered a unit, even if it has contents held off board in the cloaking box?

 

[Robin Reeve]

I just checked the Index definition.
And after it a Glider counter is not a unit.
I may be wrong, of course: what leads you to consider that the Index definition allows to consider that a Glider is a unit?

 

[ibncalb]

So you are saying that apart from the abilty of an enemy unit to fire at it in their DFPh (as if it were a stopped truck [E8.3], the landed glider is not considered a unit, even if it has contents held off board in the cloaking box?

You can shoot at the glider but as it is not a unit it does not trigger the first SS opportunity.

 

[Jon]

I just checked the Index definition.
And after it a Glider counter is not a unit.
I may be wrong, of course: what leads you to consider that the Index definition allows to consider that a Glider is a unit?

Hi Robin
I'm not disagreeing with you, I don't think a landed glider is a unit either

 

[Stewart]

You can surely fire at the Glider (loaded), but Freedom of movement isn't available until you see someone sneak out.

Seems reasonable to me.
If everyone dies in the crash...no one comes out...

 

[KenYoung]

A12.2 ... A concealed vehicle in the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit (regardless of range) loses its concealment if hit on a To Hit Table, and also in A12.2 If a Gun, vehicle, Cavalry, horse, or bicycle (or SW) counter loses its hidden/concealed status (regardless of range) so does its manning Infantry or PRC, and vice versa. So if the Glider is hit. It's passengers are placed on board (unconcealed), before the effects DR. At this point there is LOS to a KEU and Freedom Of Movement is gained.