Precision Dice Required in Tournaments

MarkDV

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WILL Sanders, may he rest in peace, gave me a habit about 15 years ago that I use today. I keep 15 to 20 sets of dice and I roll thru them as the game goes on. IT gives me a sense of pattern, trend. It has helped my sanity and sportsmanship to no end because the dice are...well dice. Random. AND yes, you get lucky and unlucky trends. So it goes b/c I figure 1/3rd of this game I have NO control over. The tactics and rules knowledge parts? I have control over but the dice end, not at all.

Having weighed in, I can see a tourney saying NO PRECISION DICE.......just my take good discussion.

So who uses the IIFT? (he says throwing a verbal grenade.....)
 

Philippe D.

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skill differences between players should have a higher bearing on the game at this scale.
Worse(*) than that: even with balanced dice, how you throw them could have some significant influence on the results. Cubic dice tend to roll forward and not turn sideways, so if you do this carefully, you might make an opposite pair of numbers (1 and 6, or 2 and 5, or 3 and 4) less likely than the others.

This could be used to avoid extreme results (make 1,6 less likely), or to increase the chances of extreme results (make 3-4 less likely), or even to decrease the chances of cowering (make different pairs less likely with the two dice). If done expertly (say, so as to make the "less likely" pair never appear), this would have a much more significant influence on a game outcome than poorly balanced dice (here I am thinking of poorly balanced, not outright weighted dice - something like what would be possible with non-precision dice such as those found in ASL boxes).

I suspect it would be more difficult with, say, a dice tower than just rolling dice into a flat surface, and I admit I am no expert myself.

There is a pretty well-known mathematician (probabilist and statistician) named Persi Diaconis who, in an earlier career, used to be a professional magician; I know he has done some work on randomness, esp. coin flipping, but I have not managed to find anything of his on fixing dice rolls. He has a few videos on the Numberphile channel, though.

(*) I realize I said "worse", but really this is something that is unlikely to happen without the player deliberately attempting to cheat; and it seems to me that somone trying to cheat at ASL probably could do it more easily without becoming an expert at fixing his dice rolling.
 

BattleSchool

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Gents . we are down to talking about weight of foil and skin oil now ..

I think someone mentioned upstream : skill differences between players should have a higher bearing on the game at this scale.
I had hoped to highlight the absurdity of taking this to the nth degree. Non-precision dice are far more likely to be unbalanced than their casino-grade cousins are. What players do with this information is up to them. But before you waste time rolling your dice 600 times or so, check the basics. Look for flaws and measure the dice. More often than not these elementary checks will save you a lot of grief.
 

Sparafucil3

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I think someone mentioned upstream : skill differences between players should have a higher bearing on the game at this scale.
In the long run, absolutely. BUT, if you're talking about one game and it's the last DR (how many times has that happened?), it can make a difference. As I said up-thread, I don't do this for you, I do this for me. I know the math and I know the probabilities. I am that guy sitting across from you going "One in two, one in four, one in eight, one in sixteen ..." as you rip ROF shot after ROF shot. I try not to complain about dice too much, but I will comment about your ROF 1 weapon getting rate multiple turns, especially if I am doing all the right things, forcing you to change CA to get the shot, putting all the DRM's in my favor and you happen to roll a 1 time after time to get the second shot that takes out a unit I had reasonably expected to survive. Trust me, being cursed with the knowing the odds is usually far worse than blissfully giggling as my tank burns. It's not you or the dice that steams me, it's know time after time that I SHOULD have got a better result but that luck screwed me. I am on the receiving end of that more often but I have had my runs on the delivery side occasionally. ;) -- jim
 

hongkongwargamer

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Worse(*) than that: even with balanced dice, how you throw them could have some significant influence on the results. Cubic dice tend to roll forward and not turn sideways, so if you do this carefully, you might make an opposite pair of numbers (1 and 6, or 2 and 5, or 3 and 4) less likely than the others.

This could be used to avoid extreme results (make 1,6 less likely), or to increase the chances of extreme results (make 3-4 less likely), or even to decrease the chances of cowering (make different pairs less likely with the two dice). If done expertly (say, so as to make the "less likely" pair never appear), this would have a much more significant influence on a game outcome than poorly balanced dice (here I am thinking of poorly balanced, not outright weighted dice - something like what would be possible with non-precision dice such as those found in ASL boxes).

I suspect it would be more difficult with, say, a dice tower than just rolling dice into a flat surface, and I admit I am no expert myself.

There is a pretty well-known mathematician (probabilist and statistician) named Persi Diaconis who, in an earlier career, used to be a professional magician; I know he has done some work on randomness, esp. coin flipping, but I have not managed to find anything of his on fixing dice rolls. He has a few videos on the Numberphile channel, though.

(*) I realize I said "worse", but really this is something that is unlikely to happen without the player deliberately attempting to cheat; and it seems to me that somone trying to cheat at ASL probably could do it more easily without becoming an expert at fixing his dice rolling.
Dunno mate.

I am pretty sure my ASL games ain't frantic dice rolling competitions. I am saying that 'cause that's what's this is beginning to sound like. I know your games ain't that way too.

I love my precision dice. I never really care what my opponent use and I have never seen anything weird, certainly not rolls weird enough to affect a game more than my incompetence does.

But I love this game and as such it's worth getting BattleDice for. It's respect for the game and respect for my opponent.

If folks are willing to sell their credibility by being an ass over what kinda dice their opponents use ... alright. Not a trade I'd make, but ... alright.

None of us are getting any younger and the world's going to hell in a hand basket. Play what you can, enjoy your ASL buddies when you can. All this ain't gonna last.

Happy New Year :D
 

hongkongwargamer

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In the long run, absolutely. BUT, if you're talking about one game and it's the last DR (how many times has that happened?), it can make a difference. As I said up-thread, I don't do this for you, I do this for me. I know the math and I know the probabilities. I am that guy sitting across from you going "One in two, one in four, one in eight, one in sixteen ..." as you rip ROF shot after ROF shot. I try not to complain about dice too much, but I will comment about your ROF 1 weapon getting rate multiple turns, especially if I am doing all the right things, forcing you to change CA to get the shot, putting all the DRM's in my favor and you happen to roll a 1 time after time to get the second shot that takes out a unit I had reasonably expected to survive. Trust me, being cursed with the knowing the odds is usually far worse than blissfully giggling as my tank burns. It's not you or the dice that steams me, it's know time after time that I SHOULD have got a better result but that luck screwed me. I am on the receiving end of that more often but I have had my runs on the delivery side occasionally. ;) -- jim
I hear you mate, and you play on a WAY higher level than I do.

The math ain't rocket science and we have enough degrees in this forum to count probabilities as an "okay" common knowledge.

Being on the wrong end of a rate tear is tough, but it happens often enough both ways. For us to have the next game, there must be something for our opponents to enjoy as well. Our opponents won't come back if it's all one sided, all the time .. yeah?

Don't sweat the small stuff and I know I am saying this 'cause I suck rocks and my rolling snakes all game ain't gonna help.

But it's small stuff yeah?
 

hongkongwargamer

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WILL Sanders, may he rest in peace, gave me a habit about 15 years ago that I use today. I keep 15 to 20 sets of dice and I roll thru them as the game goes on. IT gives me a sense of pattern, trend. It has helped my sanity and sportsmanship to no end because the dice are...well dice. Random. AND yes, you get lucky and unlucky trends. So it goes b/c I figure 1/3rd of this game I have NO control over. The tactics and rules knowledge parts? I have control over but the dice end, not at all.

Having weighed in, I can see a tourney saying NO PRECISION DICE.......just my take good discussion.

So who uses the IIFT? (he says throwing a verbal grenade.....)
At one of the regular ASL meets here folks rolling from a BIG bowl of dice .. so yeah, same as what you do.

And they got the IIFT memorized.
 

aiabx

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Running into an opponent who doesn't want you to use Battleschool dice because he thinks it's cheating was such an unpleasant experience that I bought some precision pips-only backgammon dice just so I didn't have to listen to ten minutes of pissing and moaning if I rolled a 3.
 

Sparafucil3

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I hear you mate, and you play on a WAY higher level than I do.
Not really.

The math ain't rocket science and we have enough degrees in this forum to count probabilities as an "okay" common knowledge.
Agreed, but knowing and applying ...

Don't sweat the small stuff ...
I don't. Just making conversation here. Some want to deny, some want to over represent. What is, is. That's beyond dispute. And if it is, and you can mitigate, then why not? You Dash to reduce the risk. I think of precision dice as I do of Dashing. I buy my dice with the money I would have spent on Critical Hit products were they not trash so it all works out in the end. ;) -- jim (In coming thumbdown in ...)
 

Fort

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I tend to keep track of my boxcars and snake eyes out of habit from the tourneys that give awards for most boxcars and/or snakes.
Over the years using the old Avalon hill dice from ASL i had won the rottenroller award several times at ASLOK and the Texas team tourney. My boxcar count would quite often be larger than my snakes. One year I had 88 boxcars and 38 snakes, that’s quite a large difference over the week long set of rolls. This trend continued for quite a few years. I won a set of battleschool Grofaz embossed dice and started using them and the recorded number of boxcars and snake eyes became more normalized over the next several tourneys I played, with one tourney having a count of 76 and 75...the closest they have ever been to equal (not that they should be equal). The battle school dice records have never hd more than a 7.3% difference in number of snakes vs boxcars over the course of a tourney.
I am quite pleased with their fairness.
 

Fort

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Out of curiosity I pulled out my notes for the tourneys where i kept track of dice rolls, I don’t have all the notes as my notepad was not at every event. But, when totaled up the AH dice came to a whopping 755 boxcars and 434 snake eyes.
The battleschool dice totals were 341 boxcars and 327 snake eyes.
Take what you will from this.
 

Steven Pleva

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Out of curiosity I pulled out my notes for the tourneys where i kept track of dice rolls, I don’t have all the notes as my notepad was not at every event. But, when totaled up the AH dice came to a whopping 755 boxcars and 434 snake eyes.
The battleschool dice totals were 341 boxcars and 327 snake eyes.
Take what you will from this.
The AH dice fail miserably at the 99% confidence level. It is not even close. Nobody could tell from one scenario that the dice were off. Only a large number of trials can adequately demonstrate this. This is why you get precision dice. Thanks for sharing, Fort...
Steve
 

Tater

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You do you. Having said that, you've spent hundreds of dollars/Euro on a game system and play with 10 cent dice. Seems kind of crazy to me personally. JMO, YMMV. -- jim
Which is the crazy part...spending hundreds (thousands?) on a game...or...using $.10 dice to play.
 

Tater

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All it takes to ensure a fair contest is $10 for a game we all probably sunk at least $2k into...
Steve
I think polishing one’s tactics would be more valuable than worrying about the .000000000001 difference in any given set of dice.

Having said that I use battleschool dice...for the esthetics only.
 
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